2024 São Paulo Grand Prix - Interlagos, Nov 01 - 03

[langedweil]

When people are debating each other, their goal is rarely to convince the other part. Their goal is to convince other people observing the debate.

Best quote in 60 pages !!

[FrukostScones]

Finally a race that brought back a bit a fun like experienced in 2008 or 2012.

[dialtone]

Finally a race that brought back a bit a fun like experienced in 2008 or 2012.

You can say that loud. Never seen a driver voluntarily beach their car on the formation lap.

[bluechris]

Finally a race that brought back a bit a fun like experienced in 2008 or 2012.

You can say that loud. Never seen a driver voluntarily beach their car on the formation lap.

Maybe he needed to pee again.

[Wouter]

I think your animation just shows how much faster his car is compared to the backfield.
I mean he plainly just goes faster on a less advantageous line.
He's not doing and special driving. That said, he did some good stuff.
But mainly staying out on old tires until the race interruption is what won it for him.

People don't need to worship him, just because he's your favorite.
He drove well, he also had the best car of the day.

.
The RB20 was the best car in Sao Paulo?! So RBR used a magic wand after the Mexican GP in those 4 days, because then the car was by far the slowest car of the top teams. That must be it, because otherwise you can't suddenly drive 1-2 sec per lap faster than the rest. That can NEVER be due to the brilliant driving style of the driver, right?!

Then I have news for you, which you most likely know just like every F1 fan, but here you have reading material about the fact why Max was allowed to drive in F1 at the age of 17.
.

Longread: Ocon, Marko and Wolff, Max Verstappen bluffed everyone on wet Norisring

They were both there, there on the Norisring: Helmut Marko for Red Bull and Toto Wolff for Mercedes. To watch Verstappen, who showed his exceptional class in a rainy Formula 3 race. That was in 2014. Among others, Mercedes team boss Toto Wolff spent his free weekend between the GPs of Austria and Great Britain there and Red Bull advisor Helmut Marko had also circled the race in red. It was no coincidence that these were also the two who had a special interest in Verstappen since they saw him string together victories in the karts.
Despite all those extra eyes on him, Vernooij did not notice anything special about Verstappen. "Max was always calm anyway. I never noticed any form of stress in him," he says.

Max started the day by following the Porsche Carrera race with fascination, to see where the dry spots were on the track where he would later drive himself. He even had to be taken away from the TV, otherwise he would have missed the second race. In that race, he started on dry weather tires and dominated from the first meters. When it suddenly started to rain and one car after another shot off the track, the race was temporarily stopped halfway through.

According to engineer Vernooij, there was more stress in the garage than in the cockpit in that race. “At the Norisring, there is a lot of slipstreaming. If you lose the gap because of that red flag, the rest have a chance to catch up again.” Nevertheless, Vernooij was able to sit back quickly, because after the restart,
Verstappen on rain tires gained one and a half seconds on the rest lap after lap. “Really unbelievable on a lap of about 50 seconds.”
Despite the rain, red flag and three safety car situations, Verstappen finished almost nine seconds ahead of number two. He ended the weekend in style by also winning race three. In this way, he became the first driver ever to win six races in a row in the European Formula 3 championship.

Red Bull talent scout Marko had never seen a junior excel in so many changing circumstances. That Sunday afternoon, he dialed the phone number of Jos Verstappen, who missed the last day of the race weekend because of a race demonstration at the Zandvoort circuit, to make him an offer that he could not refuse: "Forget everything we discussed, he has to go to Formula 1."

.
And all that in a car that was far from the best in the field.
.

People don't need to worship him, just because he's your favorite.
He drove well, he also had the best car of the day.

.
You probably also missed how many F1 team bosses and (former) drivers praised Max in recent days for how he drove.
They worship him for that. That he has shown that he is the best on the grid. Surely all Max fans too?!

[Dunlay]

I think your animation just shows how much faster his car is compared to the backfield.
I mean he plainly just goes faster on a less advantageous line.
He's not doing and special driving. That said, he did some good stuff.
But mainly staying out on old tires until the race interruption is what won it for him.

People don't need to worship him, just because he's your favorite.
He drove well, he also had the best car of the day.

.
The RB20 was the best car in Sao Paulo?! So RBR used a magic wand after the Mexican GP in those 4 days, because then the car was by far the slowest car of the top teams. That must be it, because otherwise you can't suddenly drive 1-2 sec per lap faster than the rest. That can NEVER be due to the brilliant driving style of the driver, right?!

Then I have news for you, which you most likely know just like every F1 fan, but here you have reading material about the fact why Max was allowed to drive in F1 at the age of 17.
.

Longread: Ocon, Marko and Wolff, Max Verstappen bluffed everyone on wet Norisring

They were both there, there on the Norisring: Helmut Marko for Red Bull and Toto Wolff for Mercedes. To watch Verstappen, who showed his exceptional class in a rainy Formula 3 race. That was in 2014. Among others, Mercedes team boss Toto Wolff spent his free weekend between the GPs of Austria and Great Britain there and Red Bull advisor Helmut Marko had also circled the race in red. It was no coincidence that these were also the two who had a special interest in Verstappen since they saw him string together victories in the karts.
Despite all those extra eyes on him, Vernooij did not notice anything special about Verstappen. "Max was always calm anyway. I never noticed any form of stress in him," he says.

Max started the day by following the Porsche Carrera race with fascination, to see where the dry spots were on the track where he would later drive himself. He even had to be taken away from the TV, otherwise he would have missed the second race. In that race, he started on dry weather tires and dominated from the first meters. When it suddenly started to rain and one car after another shot off the track, the race was temporarily stopped halfway through.

According to engineer Vernooij, there was more stress in the garage than in the cockpit in that race. “At the Norisring, there is a lot of slipstreaming. If you lose the gap because of that red flag, the rest have a chance to catch up again.” Nevertheless, Vernooij was able to sit back quickly, because after the restart,
Verstappen on rain tires gained one and a half seconds on the rest lap after lap. “Really unbelievable on a lap of about 50 seconds.”
Despite the rain, red flag and three safety car situations, Verstappen finished almost nine seconds ahead of number two. He ended the weekend in style by also winning race three. In this way, he became the first driver ever to win six races in a row in the European Formula 3 championship.

Red Bull talent scout Marko had never seen a junior excel in so many changing circumstances. That Sunday afternoon, he dialed the phone number of Jos Verstappen, who missed the last day of the race weekend because of a race demonstration at the Zandvoort circuit, to make him an offer that he could not refuse: "Forget everything we discussed, he has to go to Formula 1."

.
And all that in a car that was far from the best in the field.
.

People don't need to worship him, just because he's your favorite.
He drove well, he also had the best car of the day.

.
You probably also missed how many F1 team bosses and (former) drivers praised Max in recent days for how he drove.
They worship him for that. That he has shown that he is the best on the grid. Surely all Max fans too?!

I also belong to the group that thinks it was a good drive, not great. Not a worship worthy drive. His 2016 drive was great. RB20 is no inferior car, but RB12 was. Michael's 1996 Spanish GP tops the chart of great drives. At times, he was 5 to 6 seconds faster than the dominant Williams of the year. That's worthy of worship performance.

I believe Max and Lewis are the top 2 wet weather drivers on the grid. But they need a good car to show the skills, like Lewis demonstrated in Brazil last week. Bad car, stupid the driver looks, good car, better the driver looks.

[Wouter]

You probably also missed how many F1 team bosses and (former) drivers praised Max in recent days for how he drove.
They worship him for that. That he has shown that he is the best on the grid. Surely all Max fans too?!

.
I also belong to the group that thinks it was a good drive, not great. Not a worship worthy drive.

I believe Max and Lewis are the top 2 wet weather drivers on the grid. But they need a good car to show the skills,
like Lewis demonstrated in Brazil last week. Bad car, stupid the driver looks, good car, better the driver looks.

.
I am glad Toto, Russell and Lewis and many, many more were so honest to say his drive was suberb. They didn't downplay his skills.
Max doesn't need the best car to show his skills as you can read in my long post above.
That Lewis needs a great car to show his skills showed when you saw the difference between Russell and Lewis.
Russell was way better than Lewis in the same car in SP.

[Dunlay]

You probably also missed how many F1 team bosses and (former) drivers praised Max in recent days for how he drove.
They worship him for that. That he has shown that he is the best on the grid. Surely all Max fans too?!

.
I also belong to the group that thinks it was a good drive, not great. Not a worship worthy drive.

I believe Max and Lewis are the top 2 wet weather drivers on the grid. But they need a good car to show the skills,
like Lewis demonstrated in Brazil last week. Bad car, stupid the driver looks, good car, better the driver looks.

.
I am glad Toto, Russell and Lewis and many, many more were so honest to say his drive was suberb. They didn't downplay his skills.
Max doesn't need the best car to show his skills as you can read in my long post above.
That Lewis needs a great car to show his skills showed when you saw the difference between Russell and Lewis.
Russell was way better than Lewis in the same car in SP.

How many wet races has Max won in bad cars (considering 2016 to 2020 RBs were all bad cars)? One (2019 Germany)? He bottled 2020 Turkey while having a good car that day, finsihing just one second ahead of a struggling Albon.

[organic]

.
I also belong to the group that thinks it was a good drive, not great. Not a worship worthy drive.

I believe Max and Lewis are the top 2 wet weather drivers on the grid. But they need a good car to show the skills,
like Lewis demonstrated in Brazil last week. Bad car, stupid the driver looks, good car, better the driver looks.

.
I am glad Toto, Russell and Lewis and many, many more were so honest to say his drive was suberb. They didn't downplay his skills.
Max doesn't need the best car to show his skills as you can read in my long post above.
That Lewis needs a great car to show his skills showed when you saw the difference between Russell and Lewis.
Russell was way better than Lewis in the same car in SP.

How many wet races has Max won in bad cars (considering 2016 to 2020 RBs were all bad cars)? One (2019 Germany)? He bottled 2020 Turkey while having a good car that day, finsihing just one second ahead of a struggling Albon.

He span 7 times in that race with a car that's notoriously got a loose rear. It's quite likely that whatever window it had that day did not make it a good car..

[Dunlay]

.
I am glad Toto, Russell and Lewis and many, many more were so honest to say his drive was suberb. They didn't downplay his skills.
Max doesn't need the best car to show his skills as you can read in my long post above.
That Lewis needs a great car to show his skills showed when you saw the difference between Russell and Lewis.
Russell was way better than Lewis in the same car in SP.

How many wet races has Max won in bad cars (considering 2016 to 2020 RBs were all bad cars)? One (2019 Germany)? He bottled 2020 Turkey while having a good car that day, finsihing just one second ahead of a struggling Albon.

He span 7 times in that race with a car that's notoriously got a loose rear. It's quite likely that whatever window it had that day did not make it a good car..

Good results, it's all driver. Bad results, it's the car. I have heard that so much on Mercedes thread. 4 races later that season, that car comfortably won in Abu Dhabi from pole to win.

[hollus]

Guys, cut the stupid slap fight. Go to other forums to take digs at whoever doesn’t like your goat.

[Bill]

I think your animation just shows how much faster his car is compared to the backfield.
I mean he plainly just goes faster on a less advantageous line.
He's not doing and special driving. That said, he did some good stuff.
But mainly staying out on old tires until the race interruption is what won it for him.

People don't need to worship him, just because he's your favorite.
He drove well, he also had the best car of the day.

.
The RB20 was the best car in Sao Paulo?! So RBR used a magic wand after the Mexican GP in those 4 days, because then the car was by far the slowest car of the top teams. That must be it, because otherwise you can't suddenly drive 1-2 sec per lap faster than the rest. That can NEVER be due to the brilliant driving style of the driver, right?!

Then I have news for you, which you most likely know just like every F1 fan, but here you have reading material about the fact why Max was allowed to drive in F1 at the age of 17.
.

Longread: Ocon, Marko and Wolff, Max Verstappen bluffed everyone on wet Norisring

They were both there, there on the Norisring: Helmut Marko for Red Bull and Toto Wolff for Mercedes. To watch Verstappen, who showed his exceptional class in a rainy Formula 3 race. That was in 2014. Among others, Mercedes team boss Toto Wolff spent his free weekend between the GPs of Austria and Great Britain there and Red Bull advisor Helmut Marko had also circled the race in red. It was no coincidence that these were also the two who had a special interest in Verstappen since they saw him string together victories in the karts.
Despite all those extra eyes on him, Vernooij did not notice anything special about Verstappen. "Max was always calm anyway. I never noticed any form of stress in him," he says.

Max started the day by following the Porsche Carrera race with fascination, to see where the dry spots were on the track where he would later drive himself. He even had to be taken away from the TV, otherwise he would have missed the second race. In that race, he started on dry weather tires and dominated from the first meters. When it suddenly started to rain and one car after another shot off the track, the race was temporarily stopped halfway through.

According to engineer Vernooij, there was more stress in the garage than in the cockpit in that race. “At the Norisring, there is a lot of slipstreaming. If you lose the gap because of that red flag, the rest have a chance to catch up again.” Nevertheless, Vernooij was able to sit back quickly, because after the restart,
Verstappen on rain tires gained one and a half seconds on the rest lap after lap. “Really unbelievable on a lap of about 50 seconds.”
Despite the rain, red flag and three safety car situations, Verstappen finished almost nine seconds ahead of number two. He ended the weekend in style by also winning race three. In this way, he became the first driver ever to win six races in a row in the European Formula 3 championship.

Red Bull talent scout Marko had never seen a junior excel in so many changing circumstances. That Sunday afternoon, he dialed the phone number of Jos Verstappen, who missed the last day of the race weekend because of a race demonstration at the Zandvoort circuit, to make him an offer that he could not refuse: "Forget everything we discussed, he has to go to Formula 1."

.
And all that in a car that was far from the best in the field.
.

People don't need to worship him, just because he's your favorite.
He drove well, he also had the best car of the day.

.
You probably also missed how many F1 team bosses and (former) drivers praised Max in recent days for how he drove.
They worship him for that. That he has shown that he is the best on the grid. Surely all Max fans too?!

I also belong to the group that thinks it was a good drive, not great. Not a worship worthy drive. His 2016 drive was great. RB20 is no inferior car, but RB12 was. Michael's 1996 Spanish GP tops the chart of great drives. At times, he was 5 to 6 seconds faster than the dominant Williams of the year. That's worthy of worship performance.

I believe Max and Lewis are the top 2 wet weather drivers on the grid. But they need a good car to show the skills, like Lewis demonstrated in Brazil last week. Bad car, stupid the driver looks, good car, better the driver looks.

Max gained 5 places that he didn't have to work for because of redflag rule yet everyone is up in arms in giving him credits ,we know that he is a good driver he doesn't need that.Norris was right he got luck he wasn't being bitter.by changing tires under safety you afford 25 second penalty and the risk and tire usage that comes from having to actually overtake cars.

[basti313]

Max gained 5 places that he didn't have to work for because of redflag rule yet everyone is up in arms in giving him credits ,we know that he is a good driver he doesn't need that.Norris was right he got luck he wasn't being bitter.by changing tires under safety you afford 25 second penalty and the risk and tire usage that comes from having to actually overtake cars.

Major complaints on the situation are coming from people who have this issue in multiple races. Ok, in the last six years there were only two mid-race red flags, so the statistics is low.
Interestingly Mercedes does not really complain. Russel for example is just complaining about himself not staying out. They know that they messed up themselves for both red flags.
On the other hand, it is interesting, that the same drivers profit: Ocon, Gasly and Verstappen all profited from the red flag in Saudi and Brazil. Ocon nearly ended up on the podium in Saudi 2021!

So is it the driver or the rule?

[Wouter]

The RB20 was the best car in Sao Paulo?! So RBR used a magic wand after the Mexican GP in those 4 days, because then the car was by far the slowest car of the top teams. That must be it, because otherwise you can't suddenly drive 1-2 sec per lap faster than the rest. That can NEVER be due to the brilliant driving style of the driver, right?!

Then I have news for you, which you most likely know just like every F1 fan, but here you have reading material about the fact why Max was allowed to drive in F1 at the age of 17.
.
And all that in a car that was far from the best in the field.
.
You probably also missed how many F1 team bosses and (former) drivers praised Max in recent days for how he drove.
They worship him for that. That he has shown that he is the best on the grid. Surely all Max fans too?!

.
I also belong to the group that thinks it was a good drive, not great. Not a worship worthy drive. His 2016 drive was great. RB20 is no inferior car, but RB12 was. Michael's 1996 Spanish GP tops the chart of great drives. At times, he was 5 to 6 seconds faster than the dominant Williams of the year. That's worthy of worship performance.

I believe Max and Lewis are the top 2 wet weather drivers on the grid. But they need a good car to show the skills, like Lewis demonstrated in Brazil last week. Bad car, stupid the driver looks, good car, better the driver looks.

.
Max gained 5 places that he didn't have to work for because of redflag rule yet everyone is up in arms in giving him credits ,we know that he is a good driver he doesn't need that.
Norris was right he got luck he wasn't being bitter.
by changing tires under safety you afford 25 second penalty and the risk and tire usage that comes from having to actually overtake cars.

.
"Norris was right, he was lucky, he wasn't bitter."

This had nothing to do with luck at all but with common sense and then take a chance.
If the conditions on the track are already very bad because of the rain and there is a lot more rain coming in 4 minutes,
then everyone understands that a red flag will be raised very quickly. Nobody knows how soon, but that red flag will come.
As said: It has nothing to do with luck, but thinking carefully and using your common sense.
Ocon and Gasly also used their common sense. Russell did it too but he wasn't allowed.

[Farnborough]

I feel that the correct word for some of these successful decisions is EXPERIENCE.

The race weekend, from a long way out, was clearly going to be dominated by wet weather as an overall and all encompassing backdrop, with all the risk that entails.

Many crash and "adventures" in driving lead up to race start sets the scene. They all know what can be done with a red flag, some held their nerve until it came. That is EXPERIENCE in reality. Working the timing and risk is the method.

Aside from Max, I felt both Ocon & Gasly drove their race in exemplary fashion, fully deserving the result they got. What a team result.

Ocon , in my vie, has potentially over his competing years, possiblly scuppered his own career with belligerence, dressed up as "determined" whereas here he fully actioned his potential. Specifically not getting involved with Max overtake on him to ultimately conserve a very high finish for him and team.
Both he and Gasly seemed to run very level headed throughout this race, and bagged serious result.

They, all teams, knew what was coming in weather potential, disruption etc etc. Some fully leveraged that with their approach and experience. There's not much other way it can be described in all honesty