2024 Qatar Grand Prix - Lusail, Nov 29 - Dec 01

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venkyhere
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Re: 2024 Qatar Grand Prix - Lusail, Nov 29 - Dec 01

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McLarenHonda wrote:
26 Nov 2024, 22:45
Temperatures have been the biggest differentiating factor this year with Mercedes looking like only working in low temps! This graph looks interesting…Qatar is going to be low temp too!

This chart would have been more meaningful, had it been based not on 'winner', and rather on 'average laptime, without crash/mechanical damage/rain'.

Farnborough
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Re: 2024 Qatar Grand Prix - Lusail, Nov 29 - Dec 01

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I thought interesting too, but then with same observation.

Notable that three of the MB wins are with foundation in MV failure (Silverstone Q, Austria crash, Belgium engine penalty) and with Miami McL success derived from SC handling that skews the temperature dependent theory by using "win" as defined achievement.

It can't, in reality, tell us much.

Farnborough
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Re: 2024 Qatar Grand Prix - Lusail, Nov 29 - Dec 01

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I do feel that MB has a good chance here though, if they don't cock~up their setup.

It looks to me like lifting the chassis a little in Las Vegas (speculation in protecting floor thickness) and everyone having to use raised tire pressure, pushed it into range of this chassis for them.

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Chuckjr
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Re: 2024 Qatar Grand Prix - Lusail, Nov 29 - Dec 01

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I really liked the mandated 3 stops. It forced all drivers to push 100% the whole race last year. I really hope they bring in some races where 3 stops are mandated 2025 or 26. It’s such a great test for the drivers and we get to see 100% push racing the whole time. I really want races that push drivers to their limit constantly. I want races where pacing only leads to losing places. I want quali pace every lap. I want more mistakes from drivers from sheer mental and physical exhaustion. I want drivers collapsing on the podium like the old days. Hopefully it would lead to more power unit and gearbox failures and thus some additional randomness, chance, and unpredictability to both championships. I don’t know why the FIA haven’t clued into this very simple idea.
Watching F1 since 1986.

dia6olo
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Re: 2024 Qatar Grand Prix - Lusail, Nov 29 - Dec 01

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venkyhere wrote:
25 Nov 2024, 15:20
SirBastianVettel wrote:
25 Nov 2024, 11:43
I heard a lot of people saying that Ferrari will struggle in Qatar. Why is that?
General perception is that Ferrari's strength is slow speed rotation and traction, plus straights. The Qatar track doesn't have many of those. Lots of long radius corners, where 'driver skill' will make it's presence felt. In fact, apart from T6 (slow hairpin), all of them are long radius corners, medium speed and high speed. Sector3 has all of the high speed corners (T12-T16) and Sector1 and Sector2 have all of the medium speed corners (T1 to T10, except T6). McLaren will be mega in Sectors 1 and 2 and Redbull (if they get the car right) has an advantage in Sector 3.

It's a proper 'drivers track' like Brazil, Suzuka etc, very flowing. No jerks.
Am I missing something?
Car strength and weaknesses aside, to me a driver's skill makes its presence felt in the slow corners, were a chunk of time can be gained/lost.
I don't really see the driver skill in the long radios corners, that's surely mostly down to the car...

venkyhere
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Re: 2024 Qatar Grand Prix - Lusail, Nov 29 - Dec 01

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dia6olo wrote:
27 Nov 2024, 14:22
venkyhere wrote:
25 Nov 2024, 15:20
SirBastianVettel wrote:
25 Nov 2024, 11:43
I heard a lot of people saying that Ferrari will struggle in Qatar. Why is that?
General perception is that Ferrari's strength is slow speed rotation and traction, plus straights. The Qatar track doesn't have many of those. Lots of long radius corners, where 'driver skill' will make it's presence felt. In fact, apart from T6 (slow hairpin), all of them are long radius corners, medium speed and high speed. Sector3 has all of the high speed corners (T12-T16) and Sector1 and Sector2 have all of the medium speed corners (T1 to T10, except T6). McLaren will be mega in Sectors 1 and 2 and Redbull (if they get the car right) has an advantage in Sector 3.

It's a proper 'drivers track' like Brazil, Suzuka etc, very flowing. No jerks.
Am I missing something?
Car strength and weaknesses aside, to me a driver's skill makes its presence felt in the slow corners, were a chunk of time can be gained/lost.
I don't really see the driver skill in the long radios corners, that's surely mostly down to the car...
I see it the other way around :

In slow corners, making tradeoffs like braking late and rotating at the apex (gaining time on entry, losing time on exit) v/s braking early and rotating before the apex (losing time on entry, gaining time on exit) is far easier and choosable, based on doing one FP lap one way and doing the other FP lap the other way or doing one thing with fresh tires and doing the other when tyres are worn, etc etc... this is something that is part of the basic repertoire of any F1 driver. Things are happening much slower, so the driver has the 'time' to accurately 'pin down' his adjusted driving style. Because, depending upon the inherent nature of the track (whether there is a long straight before or after this slow corner) or the car or the state of tyres, any of these two styles can be the better option to minimize laptime.

In fast long radius corners, this kind of tradeoff is much harder to execute, because there isn't much role played by brakes, but rather from the 'lateral loading' of the tyres dependent on speed and steering angle. Just 1 degree change in angle of the steering can be the difference between 0.05s gained or lost through a high speed corner, as it will impact not only the line taken to the next bit of the road (which will eventually influence that upcoming corner as well) but also influence the tyre wear. With long radius med/high speed corners usually being a wide bit of track, without any clear 'this is the apex point', it's not easy to 'pin down' the line through here. The car isn't going to be 'rotating uniformly' throughout the corner, it's going to rotate more for some duration, and rotate less for some duration of time, in between two straight portions of time. Only the truly skilled F1 drivers choose the 'most optimal' line through such corners, such that for the duration that the car remains with steering 'turned' in the corner :
a) the 'rotation more' duration is minimized
b) the 'rotation less' duration is maximized
so that the car carries as high straightline speed at the exit of the corner.
And all this is dependent on the 'attitude' of the car, w.r.t lateral and longitudinal loading, controlled via steering/throttle/brakes,
This is something very subtle and not necessarily revealed by the TV telecast graphic showing 'braking' 'minimum speed' 'throttle' plots (driverX is 0.15s slower than driverY) on the screem, when they want to inform us viewers about 'where is driverX losing time'. Minimum speed doesn't matter, what matters is 'duration' and 'exit speed' through the corner. Classic examples of such corners are the double-apex right handler / long U-turn at Canada, same thing in Paul Ricard france (forgot the names for these), Pouhon in Spa, 130R in Suzuka, Curva Grande and Parabolica from Monza, etc etc.

Of course the car is the main determinant, but if two cars have very similar high speed aero grip balance (for example Mclaren v Redbull or McLaren v McLaren) at 250kph, the skill difference b/w drivers can ensure there is a gain/loss of 0.05s-0.1s as well as less usage of tyres through the same corner, and at the same time it will setup the car to gain more time in the next upcoming corner as well.

dialtone
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2024 Qatar Grand Prix - Lusail, Nov 29 - Dec 01

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That’s all a bit simplistic… these cars don’t rotate easily without front downforce, which you surely don’t have in slow corners.

It’s arguable that Max’s win in Brazil was very much thanks to his ability to careful control the power to the rear wheels.

Schumacher was known for his particular style of driving that never really fully dropped the accelerator, and you see a similar thing with Leclerc also using the accelerator to turn the car.

Both slow and fast corners present multiple ways for a driver to make the difference. Both types of corners use tires in different ways, front and rears, and need the car to work. Drivers usually choose a balance where they can apply their strength to overcome car weaknesses while taking advantage of the car strengths to hide the driver weakness.

BanMeToo
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Re: 2024 Qatar Grand Prix - Lusail, Nov 29 - Dec 01

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Agreed with dialtone. I've never heard someone say the driver doesn't make a difference in low speed corners

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organic
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Re: 2024 Qatar Grand Prix - Lusail, Nov 29 - Dec 01

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Vanja #66
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Re: 2024 Qatar Grand Prix - Lusail, Nov 29 - Dec 01

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The tyre killer

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AeroGimli.x

And they call it a stall. A STALL!

#DwarvesAreNaturalSprinters
#BlessYouLaddie

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chrisc90
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Re: 2024 Qatar Grand Prix - Lusail, Nov 29 - Dec 01

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Wonder what will happen if the kerbs still butcher the tyres. I guess only FP1 and the sprint to see if they are damaging the inner sidewalls.
Mess with the Bull - you get the horns.

Formula 1 fan 1996
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Re: 2024 Qatar Grand Prix - Lusail, Nov 29 - Dec 01

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Which team is favourite for win in Qatar?

Z-one
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Re: 2024 Qatar Grand Prix - Lusail, Nov 29 - Dec 01

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Formula 1 fan 1996 wrote:
28 Nov 2024, 12:57
Which team is favourite for win in Qatar?
MCL
The mankind’s courage and resolution will be witnessed and remembered by stars.

Farnborough
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Re: 2024 Qatar Grand Prix - Lusail, Nov 29 - Dec 01

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Formula 1 fan 1996 wrote:
28 Nov 2024, 12:57
Which team is favourite for win in Qatar?
I feel it'll be close with maybe a shuffle in the top 4 team as to ultimate pace.

Those MB (if they understand how they got there in Las Vegas) had an awful lot of usable down force, it'd not be a surprise to see them at the front again.

All will have a more suitable wing level for this one, but front tire pressure quite high so expect "graining" to seriously impact some.

Too tight to split for me, makes the whole thing interesting like that. Wouldn't be surprised to see MB front row or scratching heads in their garage if they balls it up.

Seanspeed
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Re: 2024 Qatar Grand Prix - Lusail, Nov 29 - Dec 01

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Farnborough wrote:
28 Nov 2024, 13:14
Those MB (if they understand how they got there in Las Vegas) had an awful lot of usable down force, it'd not be a surprise to see them at the front again.
Dont think much will translate from LV to Qatar. And it's not like Merc will have all the sudden figured things out after three years simply cuz of one good race where everything fell into place for them.

If anything, I'm anticipating them to struggle a fair bit.