Lando Norris 10second stop/go penalty - Qatar 2024

[chrisc90]

I disagree there. It needed moving off the track ASAP.
...

Bottas destroyed it, it was on the racing line for a overtake

No, it was not really. I just checked the replays. It was roughly as much to the right side as the pit exit line.
Even at the restart of the SC after running over it, as far as I see it the top pack was barely that far to the right at this spot. And they went very far to the right as Verstappen defended the inside.

Would be interesting to hear Bottas, how he made it there...he was not overtaking.

Bottas pulled out the way for the Ferrari into turn 1

[dialtone]

I disagree there. It needed moving off the track ASAP.
...

Bottas destroyed it, it was on the racing line for a overtake

No, it was not really. I just checked the replays. It was roughly as much to the right side as the pit exit line.
Even at the restart of the SC after running over it, as far as I see it the top pack was barely that far to the right at this spot. And they went very far to the right as Verstappen defended the inside.

Would be interesting to hear Bottas, how he made it there...he was not overtaking.

https://ibb.co/PZh8kkD

Bottas pulled out the way for the Ferrari into turn 1

Yeah that is straight in the overtaking line into T1, all drivers said it was impossible to see and avoid. This was a VSC to fix it in 1 minute, would have avoided all sorts of things.

[Farnborough]

No, it was not really. I just checked the replays. It was roughly as much to the right side as the pit exit line.
Even at the restart of the SC after running over it, as far as I see it the top pack was barely that far to the right at this spot. And they went very far to the right as Verstappen defended the inside.

Would be interesting to hear Bottas, how he made it there...he was not overtaking.

https://ibb.co/PZh8kkD

Bottas pulled out the way for the Ferrari into turn 1

Yeah that is straight in the overtaking line into T1, all drivers said it was impossible to see and avoid. This was a VSC to fix it in 1 minute, would have avoided all sorts of things.

Maybe years ago, but not now in reality.

The track is "safe" to race in it's clear form. Debris is a hazard that needs warning etc introducing a person /body to the track (or worse in machinery) fundamentally changes that safe status to uncontained rusk. There's no real choice once they acknowledge its there.

[dialtone]

Maybe years ago, but not now in reality.

The track is "safe" to race in it's clear form. Debris is a hazard that needs warning etc introducing a person /body to the track (or worse in machinery) fundamentally changes that safe status to uncontained rusk. There's no real choice once they acknowledge its there.

Under the same FIA rules they collect debris from track under FCY which is the same as VSC.

They can collect debris near the pit wall under VSC. Technically it wasn't the mirror that caused the flat tires though and the SC could have been avoided to begin with.

[Watto]

I think they could collect the debris under a VSC if there is a gap to get a marshal out there on sky they seemed to think it was tight if there was a big enough gap

Even if they had called the SC it would have been quicker I’d imagine as less debris to clean up

On the penalty - aside from I think race control was far too slow to react - as harsh a penalty as I think it was it seemed a pretty standard penalty for the situation.

I’m also not sure I like the idea of even more grey areas where confusion on why there were 2 penalties for simular incidents .

If the mirror flicked up hit another driver going at 200 mph or pick up a puncture that puts you into a wall at 200mph etc.

[PapayaFan481]

Just thinking about consistency with the not slowing under double waved yellows.

The only recent examples have been in Qualifying and the penalty has been lap time deleted and/or 5 place grid drop.

Now if the rule/precedent for an in race breach of this rule is a 10 second stop/go, the surely the penalty in Qualifying should be equally tough?

So put to the back of the grid, not just a 5 place grid drop?

[Watto]

Just thinking about consistency with the not slowing under double waved yellows.

The only recent examples have been in Qualifying and the penalty has been lap time deleted and/or 5 place grid drop.

Now if the rule/precedent for an in race breach of this rule is a 10 second stop/go, the surely the penalty in Qualifying should be equally tough?

So put to the back of the grid, not just a 5 place grid drop?

There have been a bunch of now slowing under double waved yellows

Kimi in Spa in 2017 10sec S&G

Latifi and Mazapin Austria 2021 both 10 sec S&G



I tend to think its was too hard but its in line with other decisions

I think it is pretty harsh too under quali lap deleted and demotion; if you did your fastest lap it could be a huge drop if there isn't a good lap to back it up.,

[TFSA]

The question about whether a penalty is harsh enough eventually comes down to whether or not it discourages said behavior. One of the reasons we now have a 10 second baseline penalty for collisions or forcing another driver off the track, is that the 5 seconds from previous seasons didn't discourage it, since track position is sometimes more valuable.

I'd argue that any kind of time penalty in itself discourages not slowing under a yellow flag. You're not allowed to overtake at a yellow under any circumstance, and the advantage you gain is usually in the space of 0.5-1 sec to the driver in front (as we saw in this race). Risking any time penalty for this is ridiculous. Therefore, the only reason a driver wouldn't slow under a yellow would be that he missed it.

So Norris clearly made a mistake. But a 10 second time penalty would be more than enough to discourage this kind of behavior. It clearly wasn't intentional.

[basti313]

The question about whether a penalty is harsh enough eventually comes down to whether or not it discourages said behavior. One of the reasons we now have a 10 second baseline penalty for collisions or forcing another driver off the track, is that the 5 seconds from previous seasons didn't discourage it, since track position is sometimes more valuable.

5sec is/was a joke and still is for leaving the track and gaining an advantage. Also the 10sec is not enough.
These penalties are generally a joke how they are handed out. They were introduced for MINOR infractions like crossing the white line on pit exit. That was one of the examples where people from FIA said it makes sense to introduce the time penalties. Everything that came afterwards was just abusing this leniency.

It is just wrong to push other (serious) infractions into this minor infractions category. The other way is needed, they need to lift the penalties, not push correct ones down.

A clear example is the Stroll incident. I see no reason at all, why a driver just blatantly crashing his opponent should not do a drive through.

So Norris clearly made a mistake. But a 10 second time penalty would be more than enough to discourage this kind of behavior. It clearly wasn't intentional.

No. There is a huge underreporting of these incidents. Usually we do not see them and without the spotlight here on the situation, the team radios following and the too clear gap reduction...most likely we would not have seen it if Norris would not have postet a green sector but as usual in many sectors in the race just a yellow one. Just a worse exit from the last corner, a different engine mode or a DRS in the last ~5-10laps would have been enough to not see it without the spotlight.

The pen is harsh by reason, because it is usually super hard to catch someone.

[Watto]

The issue with 5 second penalties in particular is teams can too often negate the penalty run longer find a gap in the traffic. 10 can be harder to work around but if the leave it until the field spreads out more

[Mandrake]

Not related to the penalty but I would like to see it as in WEC where the RD can talk to the teams / drivers directly. They could call a VSC and at the same time instruct drivers to drive to the far left of the race track and to not weave and pay attention to the cleanup. Otherwise they would have to go to FCY with a set speed like in WEC (not the laptime delta thingy they have at the moment, which is still risky in itself cause drivers slow down and speed up to keep temperature or make gains around pit exit line etc.) to make safe space for a marshall. For the pinnacle of motorsport it seems to be pretty lame not to be able to recover a light mirror off the track.

[michl420]

After a few hours I think the penalty is hard but ok. But after rewatch the race, RUS almost overtake ALO into turn 1 in the same lap and didn´t lift neither. And I bet some others drive also full. It was kind of a strange yellow flag. There was also no yellow on the steering dash.

[jumpingfish]

Since these yellow flags are shown for safety reasons, it is necessary to additionally introduce an audio signal that will automatically sound in the drivers' headphones. It has already happened several times that they do not notice the flags, so let it be duplicated as a sound that they will not miss.

[bananapeel23]

Just thinking about consistency with the not slowing under double waved yellows.

The only recent examples have been in Qualifying and the penalty has been lap time deleted and/or 5 place grid drop.

Now if the rule/precedent for an in race breach of this rule is a 10 second stop/go, the surely the penalty in Qualifying should be equally tough?

So put to the back of the grid, not just a 5 place grid drop?

There are almost always mitigating circumstances when you don’t slow down under yellows, hence the ”light” penalties when people do so in quali.

In this case there were none, so the full-fat penalty was applied.

Also Norris would’ve finished in the top 5 if not for the safety cars that made the stop/go 100x worse, so in a way it usually isn’t worse than a 5 place grid drop.

[basti313]

The issue with 5 second penalties in particular is teams can too often negate the penalty run longer find a gap in the traffic. 10 can be harder to work around but if the leave it until the field spreads out more

We did not see the real pace advantage here. I fear with a pass middle of the race and a real pace advantage it is easy to get a 10sec advantage. If you just look for Verstappen...he had 6sec on P2 going easy, while P2 was going full pace defending. Pulling out 10sec to overcome a pen would have been easy.

As mentioned before: These 5 or 10sec penalties are mostly nonsense for any infractions that have to do with real advantages gained on track. They only make sense for these last laps infractions, where they put back the order. It simply does not make sense to me to hand them for non minor infractions by the rule.

Not related to the penalty but I would like to see it as in WEC where the RD can talk to the teams / drivers directly.

They can, of course. It is just no longer made public after 2021.

For the pinnacle of motorsport it seems to be pretty lame not to be able to recover a light mirror off the track.

I am not sure, why we are discussing this under the topic of the penalty. The infractions was right after the yellow came out, no way they could throw a SC that fast.
Maybe a second thread on recovering lost items would fit better?
What you are missing: VSC mean reduction of speed by 30%. At this location this is far beyond 200kph. With Marshalls being some Indian guy with bad shoes running on the track...


And this is just one example, just look into Youtube, you will find many more, where they slip on the track. It seems to be like running on ice, no idea why.