Lando Norris 10second stop/go penalty - Qatar 2024

[chrisc90]

I guess they are listed like that because they gave the red/yellow flag AND the double waved yellow flag? The marshalling board was probably alternating between the two flags?

[mwillems]

Traces are a bit more relevant. Max is the only one who touches his brakes, everyone else plays with the throttle to some degree. Max brakes in the yellow flag zone, but sees it earlier because he gets off the throttle. Carlos and Charles also see it earlier and get off the throttle.

Some curious ways through that zone, Charles almost to a delta but slowly accelerating through the yellow flag zone, Carlos just lifting off the throttle less to start until the flags and then lifting more heavily. All but Max going faster than Mazepin and Latifi at Austria for their stop and go.

I'm not sour about it the penalty as much as this I think comes back to MBS and the new Race Controller and staff that have been brought in at a crucial time of the championship. The decisions within the race aren't consistent and the new staff not consistent with the previous handling of incidents.

Even if the penalty had been applied before the safety car then Norris would have come back out in 7th, and then I think this would have a lot less annoyance about it. But I do still think many people went through a double yellow flag without substantially reducing their speed, some cruised through it.

Would love to see some onboards from the different drivers approaching that zone to see what the Marshalls were waving.

[PapayaFan481]

Not related to the penalty but I would like to see it as in WEC where the RD can talk to the teams / drivers directly. They could call a VSC and at the same time instruct drivers to drive to the far left of the race track and to not weave and pay attention to the cleanup. Otherwise they would have to go to FCY with a set speed like in WEC (not the laptime delta thingy they have at the moment, which is still risky in itself cause drivers slow down and speed up to keep temperature or make gains around pit exit line etc.) to make safe space for a marshall. For the pinnacle of motorsport it seems to be pretty lame not to be able to recover a light mirror off the track.

This does seem like it would be a really simple solution. In this instance, they could even have thrown a VSC and instructed all cars to go through the pit lane and not down the main straight.

[TFSA]

250kph in an area where they may be marshalls on track is not safe.

As has already been explained, marshalls aren't on track for double yellows. They never enter the track itself without a VSC at minimum these days, unless it's because a car has stopped in a very safe place (say, pulled off on the inside of a corner way off the track limits themselves and way off the path of danger).

[Sieper]

And that is certainly right. These cars approach so fast, even when “trundling” around. We have seen stewards get surprised in the passed.

[organic]

Not related to the penalty but I would like to see it as in WEC where the RD can talk to the teams / drivers directly. They could call a VSC and at the same time instruct drivers to drive to the far left of the race track and to not weave and pay attention to the cleanup. Otherwise they would have to go to FCY with a set speed like in WEC (not the laptime delta thingy they have at the moment, which is still risky in itself cause drivers slow down and speed up to keep temperature or make gains around pit exit line etc.) to make safe space for a marshall. For the pinnacle of motorsport it seems to be pretty lame not to be able to recover a light mirror off the track.

This would be smart

[JonoNic]

My question is. Would Lando have been penalized if it wasn't for Verstappen's message? It took the stewards a while before they reached that decision.

[mwillems]

250kph in an area where they may be marshalls on track is not safe.

As has already been explained, marshalls aren't on track for double yellows. They never enter the track itself without a VSC at minimum these days, unless it's because a car has stopped in a very safe place (say, pulled off on the inside of a corner way off the track limits themselves and way off the path of danger).

The specific wording of the rule states that you should expect that there would be Marshalls on track and that is the context of the reduction.

[Farnborough]

I feel the double yellow in this situation was absolutely correct to display by that marshal.

The flags, of any colour, take immediate effect when deployed by those on the ground. Far faster than ANY reporting or response structure that's effectively remote from that marshal post with their eyes observing a fundamental change in safety.

That time (think even more to Monaco) is ABSOLUTELY critical in driver safety primarily. There really can't be any arguments of logic to diminish that decision and the support of that marshal making it. Even it it proves to be little or no risk.

Virtually ANY system or protocol to overlay that initial response would slow that first showing down, detrimentally.

All the sorting out after that fact is purely academic.

That capability, of the post marshal, must be preserved at all,cost. Training them is a big part in that chain of events.

In this case it was shortly retracted, the drivers seeing it should always react, as some did. It's fundamental to their and their fellow competitors safety. A good example is GR incident in Australia.

Arguing about the race outcome here, based on team and driver allegiance should have no impact at all.

If they review it internally, then I think they would come to the same conclusion as it rolled out.

[basti313]

https://i.ibb.co/zHcV06R/Penalty-Trace.png
I'm not sour about it the penalty as much as this I think comes back to MBS and the new Race Controller and staff that have been brought in at a crucial time of the championship. The decisions within the race aren't consistent and the new staff not consistent with the previous handling of incidents.

I am a bit surprised by this claim. If anything, the penalty was consistent. It was consistent with previous penalties, the acceptable behavior (lift) is exactly what is/was requested in the past, handing out the penalty took long as usual, the marshalling post threw the flag as usual...
No idea, what you see as inconsistent.

https://i.ibb.co/zHcV06R/Penalty-Trace.png
Even if the penalty had been applied before the safety car then Norris would have come back out in 7th, and then I think this would have a lot less annoyance about it.

You know that this claim is completely nonsense? Such a penalty was never given out in such a short timeframe, the pen would have always been after the SC. I even think, that the time they took was not uncommonly long.
In the end Lando was lucky, that they took similarly long to give Ham the pen. In case they would have been fast with the much more obvious pen for Ham, he could have ended up in front of Lando and destroy all chances to still taking points.

https://i.ibb.co/zHcV06R/Penalty-Trace.png But I do still think many people went through a double yellow flag without substantially reducing their speed, some cruised through it.

They did what they were supposed to do....lift....
Please do not make up rules, that are not there.

https://i.ibb.co/zHcV06R/Penalty-Trace.png
Would love to see some onboards from the different drivers approaching that zone to see what the Marshalls were waving.

Double yellows? What are you intending to see different? Does this matter at all?

And that is certainly right. These cars approach so fast, even when “trundling” around. We have seen stewards get surprised in the passed.

Even with VSC it is too fast.

[DChemTech]

https://i.ibb.co/zHcV06R/Penalty-Trace.png
I'm not sour about it the penalty as much as this I think comes back to MBS and the new Race Controller and staff that have been brought in at a crucial time of the championship. The decisions within the race aren't consistent and the new staff not consistent with the previous handling of incidents.

I am a bit surprised by this claim. If anything, the penalty was consistent. It was consistent with previous penalties, the acceptable behavior (lift) is exactly what is/was requested in the past, handing out the penalty took long as usual, the marshalling post threw the flag as usual...
No idea, what you see as inconsistent.

https://i.ibb.co/zHcV06R/Penalty-Trace.png
Even if the penalty had been applied before the safety car then Norris would have come back out in 7th, and then I think this would have a lot less annoyance about it.

You know that this claim is completely nonsense? Such a penalty was never given out in such a short timeframe, the pen would have always been after the SC. I even think, that the time they took was not uncommonly long.
In the end Lando was lucky, that they took similarly long to give Ham the pen. In case they would have been fast with the much more obvious pen for Ham, he could have ended up in front of Lando and destroy all chances to still taking points.

https://i.ibb.co/zHcV06R/Penalty-Trace.png But I do still think many people went through a double yellow flag without substantially reducing their speed, some cruised through it.

They did what they were supposed to do....lift....
Please do not make up rules, that are not there.

https://i.ibb.co/zHcV06R/Penalty-Trace.png
Would love to see some onboards from the different drivers approaching that zone to see what the Marshalls were waving.

Double yellows? What are you intending to see different? Does this matter at all?

And that is certainly right. These cars approach so fast, even when “trundling” around. We have seen stewards get surprised in the passed.

Even with VSC it is too fast.

As already noted last page, I think this is the main issue:

The problem is not that the FIA judged it subjetively, it is that the rule ís inherently subjective. There is no objective interpretation of "reduce significantly". It depends very much on location and circumstances too - slamming the brakes mid-straight may not be the best of ideas.

There simply is no objective measure for what is slowing sufficiently - for one it may be reduce throttle for some time, for another a full lift, yet another may see braking as the only significant action. And it depends on position (straight or poor-visibility corner), weather, etc.
It's also very hard to make it objective; the closest would be "here's a map of the maximum speed at any stage of the track in case of double yellows", and even that would not account for the rate of deceleration, or influence of weather etc. Some automated system would also avoid the issue of unclear rules, but it's by no means guaranteeing a safe situation if all cars suddenly automatically decelerate.

[CjC]

Sorry if it’s already been asked.
Do anyone know what the penalty is for not lifting under a single yellow flag?

[mwillems]

https://i.ibb.co/zHcV06R/Penalty-Trace.png
I'm not sour about it the penalty as much as this I think comes back to MBS and the new Race Controller and staff that have been brought in at a crucial time of the championship. The decisions within the race aren't consistent and the new staff not consistent with the previous handling of incidents.

I am a bit surprised by this claim. If anything, the penalty was consistent. It was consistent with previous penalties, the acceptable behavior (lift) is exactly what is/was requested in the past, handing out the penalty took long as usual, the marshalling post threw the flag as usual...
No idea, what you see as inconsistent.

https://i.ibb.co/zHcV06R/Penalty-Trace.png
Even if the penalty had been applied before the safety car then Norris would have come back out in 7th, and then I think this would have a lot less annoyance about it.

You know that this claim is completely nonsense? Such a penalty was never given out in such a short timeframe, the pen would have always been after the SC. I even think, that the time they took was not uncommonly long.
In the end Lando was lucky, that they took similarly long to give Ham the pen. In case they would have been fast with the much more obvious pen for Ham, he could have ended up in front of Lando and destroy all chances to still taking points.

https://i.ibb.co/zHcV06R/Penalty-Trace.png But I do still think many people went through a double yellow flag without substantially reducing their speed, some cruised through it.

They did what they were supposed to do....lift....
Please do not make up rules, that are not there.

https://i.ibb.co/zHcV06R/Penalty-Trace.png
Would love to see some onboards from the different drivers approaching that zone to see what the Marshalls were waving.

Double yellows? What are you intending to see different? Does this matter at all?

And that is certainly right. These cars approach so fast, even when “trundling” around. We have seen stewards get surprised in the passed.

Even with VSC it is too fast.

It isn't consistent. They said it was dangerous and then said it wasn't for several laps. It's the exact opposite of consistent

As for speeds, almost all went through the double yellows faster than Latifi and Mazepin when they got their penalties at Austria (For not slowing sufficienctly lol). There isn't consistency around what is safe, the only requirement is clearly "show that you are not totally ignoring us" and nothing to do with a safe speed.

Yes, I want to know when the yellow flag was being waved since the data suggests it wasn't on Consistently, so I'd be interested to double check that.

[mwillems]

https://i.ibb.co/zHcV06R/Penalty-Trace.png
I'm not sour about it the penalty as much as this I think comes back to MBS and the new Race Controller and staff that have been brought in at a crucial time of the championship. The decisions within the race aren't consistent and the new staff not consistent with the previous handling of incidents.

I am a bit surprised by this claim. If anything, the penalty was consistent. It was consistent with previous penalties, the acceptable behavior (lift) is exactly what is/was requested in the past, handing out the penalty took long as usual, the marshalling post threw the flag as usual...
No idea, what you see as inconsistent.

https://i.ibb.co/zHcV06R/Penalty-Trace.png
Even if the penalty had been applied before the safety car then Norris would have come back out in 7th, and then I think this would have a lot less annoyance about it.

You know that this claim is completely nonsense? Such a penalty was never given out in such a short timeframe, the pen would have always been after the SC. I even think, that the time they took was not uncommonly long.
In the end Lando was lucky, that they took similarly long to give Ham the pen. In case they would have been fast with the much more obvious pen for Ham, he could have ended up in front of Lando and destroy all chances to still taking points.

https://i.ibb.co/zHcV06R/Penalty-Trace.png But I do still think many people went through a double yellow flag without substantially reducing their speed, some cruised through it.

They did what they were supposed to do....lift....
Please do not make up rules, that are not there.

https://i.ibb.co/zHcV06R/Penalty-Trace.png
Would love to see some onboards from the different drivers approaching that zone to see what the Marshalls were waving.

Double yellows? What are you intending to see different? Does this matter at all?

And that is certainly right. These cars approach so fast, even when “trundling” around. We have seen stewards get surprised in the passed.

Even with VSC it is too fast.

As already noted last page, I think this is the main issue:

The problem is not that the FIA judged it subjetively, it is that the rule ís inherently subjective. There is no objective interpretation of "reduce significantly". It depends very much on location and circumstances too - slamming the brakes mid-straight may not be the best of ideas.

There simply is no objective measure for what is slowing sufficiently - for one it may be reduce throttle for some time, for another a full lift, yet another may see braking as the only significant action. And it depends on position (straight or poor-visibility corner), weather, etc.
It's also very hard to make it objective; the closest would be "here's a map of the maximum speed at any stage of the track in case of double yellows", and even that would not account for the rate of deceleration, or influence of weather etc. Some automated system would also avoid the issue of unclear rules, but it's by no means guaranteeing a safe situation if all cars suddenly automatically decelerate.

That's exactly the point. No point trying to dress it up like there is consistency if you can't objectively measure it. It's nonsense. It's literally Control wanting the teams to show willing and the punishment comes around the fact they thing someone was pulling a fast one and trying to make time, not around whether it was safe.

[basti313]

https://i.ibb.co/zHcV06R/Penalty-Trace.png
I'm not sour about it the penalty as much as this I think comes back to MBS and the new Race Controller and staff that have been brought in at a crucial time of the championship. The decisions within the race aren't consistent and the new staff not consistent with the previous handling of incidents.

I am a bit surprised by this claim. If anything, the penalty was consistent. It was consistent with previous penalties, the acceptable behavior (lift) is exactly what is/was requested in the past, handing out the penalty took long as usual, the marshalling post threw the flag as usual...
No idea, what you see as inconsistent.

https://i.ibb.co/zHcV06R/Penalty-Trace.png
Even if the penalty had been applied before the safety car then Norris would have come back out in 7th, and then I think this would have a lot less annoyance about it.

You know that this claim is completely nonsense? Such a penalty was never given out in such a short timeframe, the pen would have always been after the SC. I even think, that the time they took was not uncommonly long.
In the end Lando was lucky, that they took similarly long to give Ham the pen. In case they would have been fast with the much more obvious pen for Ham, he could have ended up in front of Lando and destroy all chances to still taking points.

https://i.ibb.co/zHcV06R/Penalty-Trace.png But I do still think many people went through a double yellow flag without substantially reducing their speed, some cruised through it.

They did what they were supposed to do....lift....
Please do not make up rules, that are not there.

https://i.ibb.co/zHcV06R/Penalty-Trace.png
Would love to see some onboards from the different drivers approaching that zone to see what the Marshalls were waving.

Double yellows? What are you intending to see different? Does this matter at all?

And that is certainly right. These cars approach so fast, even when “trundling” around. We have seen stewards get surprised in the passed.

Even with VSC it is too fast.

As already noted last page, I think this is the main issue:

The problem is not that the FIA judged it subjetively, it is that the rule ís inherently subjective. There is no objective interpretation of "reduce significantly". It depends very much on location and circumstances too - slamming the brakes mid-straight may not be the best of ideas.

There simply is no objective measure for what is slowing sufficiently - for one it may be reduce throttle for some time, for another a full lift, yet another may see braking as the only significant action. And it depends on position (straight or poor-visibility corner), weather, etc.
It's also very hard to make it objective; the closest would be "here's a map of the maximum speed at any stage of the track in case of double yellows", and even that would not account for the rate of deceleration, or influence of weather etc. Some automated system would also avoid the issue of unclear rules, but it's by no means guaranteeing a safe situation if all cars suddenly automatically decelerate.

Sorry, but this is just wrong accusation that one should not make.

It was clearly and openly defined, that a double yellow needs a clear lift. There is no breaking needed, there is no full lift needed. Reread the discussions on Rosberg in Hungary with the double yellow in his Q lap back then, it is all clearly defined.
So there is an objective definition of what needs to be done and it was simply not done by one driver.

Now you can complain about the rule, you can complain about how the mirror was handled, the weather or whatever. But accusing the stewards of a subjective judgement when it was 100% clear and objective is neither fair, not helping anyone.