2024 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

[Cs98]

In a court of law, lawyers will bring in previous behaviour to build a picture of the character of a person.

That is what George is doing here. Showing a pattern of actions that is indicative of the behaviour of a bully.

Actually you don't get to just bring in whatever evidence you like to a court room. Things that are not directly relevant to the case but could be perceived as prejudicial are often not allowed, and for good reason. You are trying to ajudicate a specific situation, if both sides are just going to bring in a laundry list of other situations trying to smear the character of the other side that is not conducive to justice in the specific case that is being decided. You can smear George too. Remember what his first instinct was when he caused a super dangerous crash with Valtteri at Imola? He went up to Valtteri as he was in the car, shouted in his face, and slapped him in the head, after a high G crash. Is it a pattern of behaviour with George that he causes dangerous situations and blames the other side, tries to get them penalised? Could be perceived that way.

That's why you don't bring in other irrelevant situations if you aren't trying to character assassinate.

Actually, since you want to take that tone, they have pretrial motions where what is relevant is adjudicated by the judge, in a criminal case and in a civil case the rules are not as tight.

Remind me which driver got community service for assaulting Ocon in the pits in Brazil? I know it wasn't George. Remind me. Which driver got punished for not being able to control his language in a press conference and then sulked like a petulant child? Remind me which driver can't keep to a delta and then, when punished for breaking the rule tries to deflect by claiming another driver was out of line?

You couldn't have missed the point more if you tried. I didn't bring up the George example because I believe George is a bad guy, I'm actually a fan. I brought it up as an example of how you can characterize someone almost any way you like if you get to use every bad situation they've ever been in against them. Arguing in such a way doesn't tell you who was right or wrong in a specific track dispute. It's just bad faith garbage, mudslinging to get at one another in the media. And George has a few skeletons in his closet too if he wants to go down that route. But you missed that point and went straight to mudslinging, again.

[CMSMJ1]

Stop.

Step away from the bait and lay off feeding the bonfire.

[venkyhere]

I dont understand why people are feeling the need to respond to posts from a handle that has 'papaya' in it's name. Chat forums are ideal fertile grounds for confirmation bias to become stronger. Debates and retorts in a thread becomes 'venting' space. Don't feed the urge and help 'more venting release'.

[organic]

Hopefully the car improves for tomorrow. The continued unpredictability of the car in terms of how it responds to the base setup implies to me they're still having significant correlation issues between the simulator and track. Maybe not something that bodes amazingly for 2025

[Watto]

Hopefully the car improves for tomorrow. The continued unpredictability of the car in terms of how it responds to the base setup implies to me they're still having significant correlation issues between the simulator and track. Maybe not something that bodes amazingly for 2025

Yep. Its a worrying sign for sure. Even Marko saying a few weeks ago about the need for a new wind tunnel to be bought online still a fair way off.

But to wonder if perhaps some of the issues are baked into the car design they now the issue but with budget cap and limited WT time etc they can't just spend their way out of the problem

[Bill]

Formu1a Uno reports that Lawson will partner Verstappen next season

Red Bull is negotiating the exit of Perez, who can count on a very significant penalty. Monday shareholder meeting. The other choices have already been made: Lawson would be Verstappen's teammate, Hadjar in Racing Bulls

.
I've read the whole article and nowhere is mentioned "Lawson would be Verstappen's teammate, Hadjar in Racing Bulls".

https://autoracer.it/it/lawson-mi-sento ... mi-stimola

vcarb is about developing drivers .are they saying lawson is a developed driver who has done all the necessary donkey work .can he save tires can he manage a race without tangling and navigate his way around traffic ,does he has the pace he was 0.7 tenth behind yuki in vegas.redbull kept throwing drivers at vcarb hoping one of them beat yuki and get promoted .i guess they gave up and they are no pretense .its going to be embarrassing choosing Lawson. The media are selling Lawson as having a higher celling than yuki , but what does that mean and what is based on. its just made up nonsense.no one ever said yuki had a higher celling in his first year even when he had a stellar junior career.

[Sergej]

Car seems a bit better than yesterday, but these conditions are not representative so let's see in quali.

[venkyhere]

Car seems a bit better than yesterday, but these conditions are not representative so let's see in quali.

T5 and the 'hotel complex' in S3 (T12 to T15) are both terrible.

[Cs98]

They've taken a step, but there's still more performance in the car, it still understeers.

[marcel171281]

Hopefully the car improves for tomorrow. The continued unpredictability of the car in terms of how it responds to the base setup implies to me they're still having significant correlation issues between the simulator and track. Maybe not something that bodes amazingly for 2025

Yep. Its a worrying sign for sure. Even Marko saying a few weeks ago about the need for a new wind tunnel to be bought online still a fair way off.

But to wonder if perhaps some of the issues are baked into the car design they now the issue but with budget cap and limited WT time etc they can't just spend their way out of the problem

The problem with the RB20 is quite clear imho. I watch every onboard from every session from Verstappen (yes I'm nuts). The core problem is a baked-in shift in aero balance. So the center of aero balance shifts in such a way that the car is never good in a variety of corners. It is normal for this balance to be more on the nose in slow speed and more on the rear in high speed. With the RB20 this doesn't happen in a correct way, which results in a car that either is very understeered in low to medium speed OR oversteered in the high speed, which is what you really don't want. The car is also very unpredictable like this. Then the second problem, which Verstappen often refers to as design limits on the car, is that the mechanical part of the car doesn't give the freedom to compensate for this behaviour. Which basically means things like suspension geometry or differental options/limitations.

The first problem can't be fix in an instance because of limited wind tunnel time, but also because I assume they have or had correlation issues, which need(ed) to be solved first. It seems they now have an understanding what to do, but it is/won't be fixed on RB20. The mechanical problem probably (front suspension) requires a new chassis design.

BTW, it you watch the onboard of Verstappen, it is not uncommen to change his diff setting multiple times a lap (he used push and pull toggles for this) to compensate for this car behaviour.

[f1isgood]

Hopefully the car improves for tomorrow. The continued unpredictability of the car in terms of how it responds to the base setup implies to me they're still having significant correlation issues between the simulator and track. Maybe not something that bodes amazingly for 2025

Yep. Its a worrying sign for sure. Even Marko saying a few weeks ago about the need for a new wind tunnel to be bought online still a fair way off.

But to wonder if perhaps some of the issues are baked into the car design they now the issue but with budget cap and limited WT time etc they can't just spend their way out of the problem

The problem with the RB20 is quite clear imho. I watch every onboard from every session from Verstappen (yes I'm nuts). The core problem is a baked-in shift in aero balance. So the center of aero balance shifts in such a way that the car is never good in a variety of corners. It is normal for this balance to be more on the nose in slow speed and more on the rear in high speed. With the RB20 this doesn't happen in a correct way, which results in a car that either is very understeered in low to medium speed OR oversteered in the high speed, which is what you really don't want. The car is also very unpredictable like this. Then the second problem, which Verstappen often refers to as design limits on the car, is that the mechanical part of the car doesn't give the freedom to compensate for this behaviour. Which basically means things like suspension geometry or differental options/limitations.

The first problem can't be fix in an instance because of limited wind tunnel time, but also because I assume they have or had correlation issues, which need(ed) to be solved first. It seems they now have an understanding what to do, but it is/won't be fixed on RB20. The mechanical problem probably (front suspension) requires a new chassis design.

BTW, it you watch the onboard of Verstappen, it is not uncommen to change his diff setting multiple times a lap (he used push and pull toggles for this) to compensate for this car behaviour.

I think these problems also become only known when you have to ultimately be on the limit every lap and race -- which has more or less been the case with their car since Miami.

I am not sure what they'll do for 2024 really. McLaren had a similar compromise last year with incredible high speed but not good enough else where. RB probably need to take the step McLaren did with a better compromise overall.

I am not sure how they will carry on with development and simulations if their tools are the issue for RB21. They better know what they are doing or it'll be a long long year. In-season development also needs more criticism and work, especially in this era.

[venkyhere]

The problem with the RB20 is quite clear imho. I watch every onboard from every session from Verstappen (yes I'm nuts). The core problem is a baked-in shift in aero balance. So the center of aero balance shifts in such a way that the car is never good in a variety of corners. It is normal for this balance to be more on the nose in slow speed and more on the rear in high speed. With the RB20 this doesn't happen in a correct way, which results in a car that either is very understeered in low to medium speed OR oversteered in the high speed, which is what you really don't want. The car is also very unpredictable like this.

Flexible front wings are the low-hanging-fruit solution. Deeper solutions might involve redesign of floor.
FW setup such that its oversteer in slow/medium corners and which will flex and backoff at high speeds, shifting the center of pressure to the rear, leading to a bit of understeery balance in high speed corners. Let's see what happens in 2025.

Then the second problem, which Verstappen often refers to as design limits on the car, is that the mechanical part of the car doesn't give the freedom to compensate for this behaviour. Which basically means things like suspension geometry or differental options/limitations.

This, I believe comes from the floor that is ultra sensitive to ride height, enforcing super stiff suspension (especially in the front axle) and super aggressive anti-dive and anti-squat angles for the wishbones. So this 'mechanical grip' aspect can be corrected only if the floor is corrected. Again, 2025 beckons, and I hope they haven't already 'gone the wrong way' with 2025 floor and need to retrace and redevelop

[Vettel165]

I have a good feeling about the next year, they might found the solution right in time this year. Trying to fix the problem. If Max has a car capable of fighting for a podium, all is possible. Also as being third in WCC we have more development resources/time for wind tunnel. But everything after now is a bonus, incredible 4 world titles really. Amazing years to be a Red Bull fan.

[Paa]

I have a good feeling about the next year, they might found the solution right in time this year. Trying to fix the problem. If Max has a car capable of fighting for a podium, all is possible. Also as being third in WCC we have more development resources/time for wind tunnel. But everything after now is a bonus, incredible 4 world titles really. Amazing years to be a Red Bull fan.

As far as I understand the more development time is kind of irrelevant for next season, as it will be mostly dedicated to car 2026.RB21 will be mostly what they patch up until the next two weeks or so, with some small adjustments along the season. But 95% of RB21 is ready. If not then their 2026 project will suffer.

[TNTHead]

The problem with the RB20 is quite clear imho. I watch every onboard from every session from Verstappen (yes I'm nuts). The core problem is a baked-in shift in aero balance. So the center of aero balance shifts in such a way that the car is never good in a variety of corners. It is normal for this balance to be more on the nose in slow speed and more on the rear in high speed. With the RB20 this doesn't happen in a correct way, which results in a car that either is very understeered in low to medium speed OR oversteered in the high speed, which is what you really don't want. The car is also very unpredictable like this. Then the second problem, which Verstappen often refers to as design limits on the car, is that the mechanical part of the car doesn't give the freedom to compensate for this behaviour. Which basically means things like suspension geometry or differental options/limitations.

The first problem can't be fix in an instance because of limited wind tunnel time, but also because I assume they have or had correlation issues, which need(ed) to be solved first. It seems they now have an understanding what to do, but it is/won't be fixed on RB20. The mechanical problem probably (front suspension) requires a new chassis design.

BTW, it you watch the onboard of Verstappen, it is not uncommen to change his diff setting multiple times a lap (he used push and pull toggles for this) to compensate for this car behaviour.

This is an excellent post, I think you nailed it. Helps a lot understanding the design challenges. Thank you.