2024 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

[f1isgood]

Piastri could not see Ver when it counted. Similar to Ver to Rus, this is a completely blind spot on the inside as long as the inside car is not fully alongside.

I think Ver was sufficiently alongside here though. Russell wasn't, and had more space than what Piastri left Verstappen.

Well...I would see two differences:
- Rus did not rotate Ver. This is a red flag to me and deserves a drive through. Similar to Stone 21, I see no reason for not giving a drive through if you turn an opponent by the rear wheel. Everything else (touchy) is up for discussion. Maybe driving bluntly into the side of an opponent should also be penalized harsh. Also a Hamilton special, so you will not find much friends with this idea. But generally as a steward, I would have my issues judging in one series correctly with a drive through and in F1 trying to find a reason for 5 or 10sec...

Difference is Verstappen also rotated here lol. Who are you going to apportion that on. If Ver punted Piastri off the track it's different (which btw is closer to what Russell did vs Verstappen). It's closer to a racing incident simply because both cars are basically well alongside unlike in Russell Verstappen.

There's basically no angle where you can show Verstappen isn't well alongside Piastri.

Sure he is not basically at the same level but his front wheel is basically very well in the front half of the McLaren's car.

[f1isgood]

The only miscalculation in the race today was Oscar not giving Max more room. Oscar had far more to lose in that collision and brought a lot of jeopardy into the WCC fight. It was silly not to yield

Yeah, this is the right take. VER wasn't divebombing, he was well within his rights to attack an open corner. Piastri simply took the racing line ignoring a car on the inside. That said, Piastri did live exactly enough room that without understeer, VER might have made it. The understeer caused the collision and hence the penalty.

That said, it's a L1T1 racing incident. FIA are just being dumb about this. Obviously most people's hatred for Max doesn't allow them to argue in a middle-ground.

I don’t think you can take the racing line while leaving space. He left space, he has no obligation to help Max with his attempt at an overtake, all of Piastri’s obligations were fulfilled. Max is a 4x WDC and he knows he’s going to understeer there. 10s penalty is the right penalty, Vettel got a few of them during his T1 spin cycle.

The racing line goes like that in Turn 1 - i.e you take a wider turn in to the corner hitting the apex. Piastri's line was closer to a racing line (if you want to exactly be pedantic) than Verstappen's was. Maybe it's not the exact "racing line" but more like a racing line.

All your points are correct.

10s I disagree -- L1T1 should be less heavily penalized. It's literally the first bit of racing and incidents happen.

[Seanspeed]

Sure he is not basically at the same level but his front wheel is basically very well in the front half of the McLaren's car.

His trajectory was always taking him into Piastri because he hadn't slowed down enough to pull off the tight line he was trying to squeeze into. Piastri left him the required space, but Verstappen's trajectory would have required more space, and Piastri had no requirement to give him that. Verstappen only ever got 'alongside' in any sense because he didn't slow down enough.

Verstappen simply misjudged it. Classic overambitious move. I dont know why this needs to be argued any more. :/ Even Verstappen admitted it was a mistake on his part ultimately.

[basti313]

I think Ver was sufficiently alongside here though.

You can save the "line" and "alongside" nonsense for next season. He understeered into his opponent on the exit. Nothing else but poor driving. That is why Max apologized at Pia for it.

Difference is Verstappen also rotated here lol.

By his own poor driving, his fault. This is not the McLaren thread where you need to rotate reality and people need to defend poor driving all season long or need to pretend it did not happen. Just name it as what it is and move on.

10s I disagree -- L1T1 should be less heavily penalized. It's literally the first bit of racing and incidents happen.

It should be penalized like any other corner. Where do you take the reasoning from that the rules are different for this corner?
In contrast, drivers should take it more easy in T1. No one is helped if poor driving kills the rest of the race.

[DChemTech]

I think Ver was sufficiently alongside here though.

You can save the "line" and "alongside" nonsense for next season. He understeered into his opponent on the exit. Nothing else but poor driving. That is why Max apologized at Pia for it.

Difference is Verstappen also rotated here lol.

By his own poor driving, his fault. This is not the McLaren thread where you need to rotate reality and people need to defend poor driving all season long or need to pretend it did not happen. Just name it as what it is and move on.

10s I disagree -- L1T1 should be less heavily penalized. It's literally the first bit of racing and incidents happen.

It should be penalized like any other corner. Where do you take the reasoning from that the rules are different for this corner?
In contrast, drivers should take it more easy in T1. No one is helped if poor driving kills the rest of the race.

Its not about the corner but about the lap. For several years "let them race" was the mentality, especially with more leniency for incidents close to the GP start.

[organic]

Perez scored an average of 1.125 points per GP in the final 8 races of the season. Lmao!

[basti313]

Its not about the corner but about the lap. For several years "let them race" was the mentality, especially with more leniency for incidents close to the GP start.

I do not see this. "Let them race" cost Masi his head and since then we have very clear rules with the driving standards guidelines. It is just that people mostly forgot or up to today never realized that cm rules on racing exist.
And as long as first lap or corner whatever you want incidents could be well judged they were mostly penalized. And should be. Not all of course.
Verstappen has the spotlight on him, no way to not penalize him. I hope that is the case for any other first corner incident. Because "let them race" only works if the can still race after the first corner or lap, right?

Perez scored an average of 1.125 points per GP in the final 8 races of the season. Lmao!

Is already anything known why he DNF yesterday again? Sounded like another burned clutch to me, but I could not find an interview or anything on the recaps about the reason.

[dren]

Perez scored an average of 1.125 points per GP in the final 8 races of the season. Lmao!

Better than I was able to pull off.

[venkyhere]

If we want to analyze the VER-PIA collision technically, it's a clear 10s penalty. The rules are there, and VER wasn't ahead at the apex. PIA had left enough room for VER to dive, brake, and avoid.

If we want to analyze the same thing philosophically, VER should grow up and show some maturity, he has no 'stake' in this race anyway, particularly lap1. If he harbored plans to win it, there is no need for so much risk in T1, especially since redbull had setup the car for 'overtaking in the straights'. It was a blunder move. As for PIA, he shouldn't be so naive and 'leave the door open' for someone like VER, who is not going to pull out of an attempted move, who is the kind of driver to use bravery as a weapon, much like Senna did, putting the 'do you want to crash, I am coming into the wedge anyway' dilemma into the other guy. It's a way of mental warfare. And even after PIA did leave the door open (maybe to defend the center of the track), he should have known it's VER and that 'cutting into the apex' racing line is just inviting trouble.

So PIA is faultless technically, VER is at fault technically. Philosophically both are at fault.

[TimW]

If we want to analyze the VER-PIA collision technically, it's a clear 10s penalty. The rules are there, and VER wasn't ahead at the apex. PIA had left enough room for VER to dive, brake, and avoid.

If we want to analyze the same thing philosophically, VER should grow up and show some maturity, he has no 'stake' in this race anyway, particularly lap1. If he harbored plans to win it, there is no need for so much risk in T1, especially since redbull had setup the car for 'overtaking in the straights'. It was a blunder move. As for PIA, he shouldn't be so naive and 'leave the door open' for someone like VER, who is not going to pull out of an attempted move, who is the kind of driver to use bravery as a weapon, much like Senna did, putting the 'do you want to crash, I am coming into the wedge anyway' dilemma into the other guy. It's a way of mental warfare. And even after PIA did leave the door open (maybe to defend the center of the track), he should have known it's VER and that 'cutting into the apex' racing line is just inviting trouble.

So PIA is faultless technically, VER is at fault technically. Philosophically both are at fault.

Fully agree. I was surprised that Piastri did not fully close the door, especially with Verstappen getting a better launch. Also there was nothing at stake for Verstappen, so he knew Verstapppen could go all in (and gamble Piastri would bail out).
As for the mental warfare, that is the gain for Verstappen. He reinforces the 'mad max' reputation, keeping other drivers wary of him. Although that reputation seems to start working against him with the stewards, 10 seconds for a first corner contact is not common.

[chrisc90]

I’m still under opinion is that optimistic overtake, however lap 1 turn 1 incident so a bit harsh to hand out a penalty given previous precedents

[marcel171281]

If we want to analyze the VER-PIA collision technically, it's a clear 10s penalty. The rules are there, and VER wasn't ahead at the apex. PIA had left enough room for VER to dive, brake, and avoid.

If we want to analyze the same thing philosophically, VER should grow up and show some maturity, he has no 'stake' in this race anyway, particularly lap1. If he harbored plans to win it, there is no need for so much risk in T1, especially since redbull had setup the car for 'overtaking in the straights'. It was a blunder move. As for PIA, he shouldn't be so naive and 'leave the door open' for someone like VER, who is not going to pull out of an attempted move, who is the kind of driver to use bravery as a weapon, much like Senna did, putting the 'do you want to crash, I am coming into the wedge anyway' dilemma into the other guy. It's a way of mental warfare. And even after PIA did leave the door open (maybe to defend the center of the track), he should have known it's VER and that 'cutting into the apex' racing line is just inviting trouble.

So PIA is faultless technically, VER is at fault technically. Philosophically both are at fault.

Agree, apart from:

"he has no 'stake' in this race anyway"

Because he is not a part in the (lets be hounest, completely overhyped) WCC, doens't mean he has no 'stake'. All 20 driver are racing for the same 'stake', finishing as close to p1 as possible. Otherwise they better do something else that day. It is every drivers right to attempt an overtake, whether the other is in some sort of battle for a championship is irrelevant.

[taperoo2k]

If we want to analyze the VER-PIA collision technically, it's a clear 10s penalty. The rules are there, and VER wasn't ahead at the apex. PIA had left enough room for VER to dive, brake, and avoid.

If we want to analyze the same thing philosophically, VER should grow up and show some maturity, he has no 'stake' in this race anyway, particularly lap1. If he harbored plans to win it, there is no need for so much risk in T1, especially since redbull had setup the car for 'overtaking in the straights'. It was a blunder move. As for PIA, he shouldn't be so naive and 'leave the door open' for someone like VER, who is not going to pull out of an attempted move, who is the kind of driver to use bravery as a weapon, much like Senna did, putting the 'do you want to crash, I am coming into the wedge anyway' dilemma into the other guy. It's a way of mental warfare. And even after PIA did leave the door open (maybe to defend the center of the track), he should have known it's VER and that 'cutting into the apex' racing line is just inviting trouble.

So PIA is faultless technically, VER is at fault technically. Philosophically both are at fault.

Agree, apart from:

"he has no 'stake' in this race anyway"

Because he is not a part in the (lets be hounest, completely overhyped) WCC, doens't mean he has no 'stake'. All 20 driver are racing for the same 'stake', finishing as close to p1 as possible. Otherwise they better do something else that day. It is every drivers right to attempt an overtake, whether the other is in some sort of battle for a championship is irrelevant.

He wasn't smart about how he raced at the start; he was never going to overtake Oscar, you could see the contact coming a mile off. If you want to win races as I think Murray Walker once said, “In order to finish first, you first have to finish”. Max won't do that if he keeps diving up the inside and contact takes place. He's been fortunate so far that he's not taken himself out of races entirely with his rash overtake attempts.

[napoleon1981]

If we want to analyze the VER-PIA collision technically, it's a clear 10s penalty. The rules are there, and VER wasn't ahead at the apex. PIA had left enough room for VER to dive, brake, and avoid.

If we want to analyze the same thing philosophically, VER should grow up and show some maturity, he has no 'stake' in this race anyway, particularly lap1. If he harbored plans to win it, there is no need for so much risk in T1, especially since redbull had setup the car for 'overtaking in the straights'. It was a blunder move. As for PIA, he shouldn't be so naive and 'leave the door open' for someone like VER, who is not going to pull out of an attempted move, who is the kind of driver to use bravery as a weapon, much like Senna did, putting the 'do you want to crash, I am coming into the wedge anyway' dilemma into the other guy. It's a way of mental warfare. And even after PIA did leave the door open (maybe to defend the center of the track), he should have known it's VER and that 'cutting into the apex' racing line is just inviting trouble.

So PIA is faultless technically, VER is at fault technically. Philosophically both are at fault.

Agree, apart from:

"he has no 'stake' in this race anyway"

Because he is not a part in the (lets be hounest, completely overhyped) WCC, doens't mean he has no 'stake'. All 20 driver are racing for the same 'stake', finishing as close to p1 as possible. Otherwise they better do something else that day. It is every drivers right to attempt an overtake, whether the other is in some sort of battle for a championship is irrelevant.

He wasn't smart about how he raced at the start; he was never going to overtake Oscar, you could see the contact coming a mile off. If you want to win races as I think Murray Walker once said, “In order to finish first, you first have to finish”. Max won't do that if he keeps diving up the inside and contact takes place. He's been fortunate so far that he's not taken himself out of races entirely with his rash overtake attempts.

Maybe they are not as rash as you make them out to be. Tbh that stick your nose in maneuver is not like Max at all, Lewis has had many more of these types of incidents for example. He usually sends it much harder which actually avoids collisions (it ends up cars avoiding and running of track etc).

[Mansell89]

Listening to Christian Horner he doesn’t sound convinced about Max’s team mate next year does he.

I think the reality is on merit it’s Yuki- but he’s a Honda man and I think they (RBR) don’t treat him the same as their usual stable drivers. Lawson has done okay, but it’s early days and they can’t say he’s earned it yet. A full season in the junior team will do him good.

Does anyone else get this weird feeling we might see Danny Ricc on a one year deal kicking off in Australia next season?