2025 Aston Martin | Aramco F1 Team

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bananapeel23
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Re: 2025 Aston Martin | Aramco F1 Team

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ispano6 wrote:
22 Jan 2025, 11:41
Honda is working on the fuel and lubricant blend with Valvoline. The question is, will Honda's solid state battery tech be put to the test? And what of Nissan's merger and expertise in Formula E and ev tech. Interesting times ahead.
Would solid state batteries really matter much, given the weight floor for the 2026 engines?

I guess you could use solid state batteries to get the overall weight down, then strategically place ballast to optimize CoG, but it's not like you're getting a huge benefit from it since the battery is already at the very bottom of the PU.

I guess there would be some packaging benefits with a smaller battery, but I don't think solid state batteries would be transformative at all for the 2026 cars.

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diffuser
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Joined: 07 Sep 2012, 13:55
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Re: 2025 Aston Martin | Aramco F1 Team

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bananapeel23 wrote:
22 Jan 2025, 12:35
ispano6 wrote:
22 Jan 2025, 11:41
Honda is working on the fuel and lubricant blend with Valvoline. The question is, will Honda's solid state battery tech be put to the test? And what of Nissan's merger and expertise in Formula E and ev tech. Interesting times ahead.
Would solid state batteries really matter much, given the weight floor for the 2026 engines?

I guess you could use solid state batteries to get the overall weight down, then strategically place ballast to optimize CoG, but it's not like you're getting a huge benefit from it since the battery is already at the very bottom of the PU.

I guess there would be some packaging benefits with a smaller battery, but I don't think solid state batteries would be transformative at all for the 2026 cars.
F1 would definitely be a good test bed for them. They claim to be half the weight for the same storage capacity. So basically the same weight as the battery they're using now with double the capcity. Weight (10-15kg) is always hard to lose on these cars in new regs. The other added plus is they're shape is more flexible, making it easier to find a slot for them.

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peewon
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Joined: 06 Jul 2021, 03:11

Re: 2025 Aston Martin | Aramco F1 Team

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diffuser wrote:
22 Jan 2025, 12:32

Trying to read tea leaves again and projecting it as facts? Vowels doesn't have a clue. He is hoping like hell that Merc is better.
Never said anything as a fact. Yes, trying to read tea leaves in the offseason is fun. I enjoy it.
diffuser wrote:
22 Jan 2025, 12:32
Why is it so hard to say "We have no Idea who will have a better PU in 2026?" The truth is that we'll have to wait till 2026 to find out.
Was literally the last line of my original post.

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diffuser
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Re: 2025 Aston Martin | Aramco F1 Team

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peewon wrote:
22 Jan 2025, 18:16
diffuser wrote:
22 Jan 2025, 12:32

Trying to read tea leaves again and projecting it as facts? Vowels doesn't have a clue. He is hoping like hell that Merc is better.
Never said anything as a fact. Yes, trying to read tea leaves in the offseason is fun. I enjoy it.
diffuser wrote:
22 Jan 2025, 12:32
Why is it so hard to say "We have no Idea who will have a better PU in 2026?" The truth is that we'll have to wait till 2026 to find out.
Was literally the last line of my original post.
ok, my bad.

TyreSlip
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Re: 2025 Aston Martin | Aramco F1 Team

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bananapeel23 wrote:
22 Jan 2025, 12:35
ispano6 wrote:
22 Jan 2025, 11:41
Honda is working on the fuel and lubricant blend with Valvoline. The question is, will Honda's solid state battery tech be put to the test? And what of Nissan's merger and expertise in Formula E and ev tech. Interesting times ahead.
Would solid state batteries really matter much, given the weight floor for the 2026 engines?

I guess you could use solid state batteries to get the overall weight down, then strategically place ballast to optimize CoG, but it's not like you're getting a huge benefit from it since the battery is already at the very bottom of the PU.

I guess there would be some packaging benefits with a smaller battery, but I don't think solid state batteries would be transformative at all for the 2026 cars.
Solid-state batteries would save not only a lot of weight, but a lot of space as the battery would not need any anode material. The lithium metal would act as the anode. The problem is making a ton of ceramic separators that generate extremely high yields that are cost effective. This is a problem that is still being worked on by startups and legacy manufacturers.

Because next generation F1 cars will be well over the mimimum weight, the first F1 manufacturer to use solid-state batteries should have a massive competitive advantage.

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RedNEO
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Joined: 09 Jul 2016, 12:58

Re: 2025 Aston Martin | Aramco F1 Team

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diffuser wrote:
22 Jan 2025, 17:10
bananapeel23 wrote:
22 Jan 2025, 12:35
ispano6 wrote:
22 Jan 2025, 11:41
Honda is working on the fuel and lubricant blend with Valvoline. The question is, will Honda's solid state battery tech be put to the test? And what of Nissan's merger and expertise in Formula E and ev tech. Interesting times ahead.
Would solid state batteries really matter much, given the weight floor for the 2026 engines?

I guess you could use solid state batteries to get the overall weight down, then strategically place ballast to optimize CoG, but it's not like you're getting a huge benefit from it since the battery is already at the very bottom of the PU.

I guess there would be some packaging benefits with a smaller battery, but I don't think solid state batteries would be transformative at all for the 2026 cars.
F1 would definitely be a good test bed for them. They claim to be half the weight for the same storage capacity. So basically the same weight as the battery they're using now with double the capcity. Weight (10-15kg) is always hard to lose on these cars in new regs. The other added plus is they're shape is more flexible, making it easier to find a slot for them.
Sounds very promising. Glad to have Honda onboard.

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bananapeel23
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Joined: 14 Feb 2023, 22:43
Location: Sweden

Re: 2025 Aston Martin | Aramco F1 Team

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diffuser wrote:
22 Jan 2025, 17:10
F1 would definitely be a good test bed for them. They claim to be half the weight for the same storage capacity. So basically the same weight as the battery they're using now with double the capcity. Weight (10-15kg) is always hard to lose on these cars in new regs. The other added plus is they're shape is more flexible, making it easier to find a slot for them.
There is a weight floor in place for the engines which I haven’t seen touted as being especially difficult to hit. The only reason you would want solid state batteries is for marginal weight distribution gains and packaging.

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diffuser
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Location: Montreal

Re: 2025 Aston Martin | Aramco F1 Team

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RedNEO wrote:
22 Jan 2025, 19:14
diffuser wrote:
22 Jan 2025, 17:10
bananapeel23 wrote:
22 Jan 2025, 12:35


Would solid state batteries really matter much, given the weight floor for the 2026 engines?

I guess you could use solid state batteries to get the overall weight down, then strategically place ballast to optimize CoG, but it's not like you're getting a huge benefit from it since the battery is already at the very bottom of the PU.

I guess there would be some packaging benefits with a smaller battery, but I don't think solid state batteries would be transformative at all for the 2026 cars.
F1 would definitely be a good test bed for them. They claim to be half the weight for the same storage capacity. So basically the same weight as the battery they're using now with double the capcity. Weight (10-15kg) is always hard to lose on these cars in new regs. The other added plus is they're shape is more flexible, making it easier to find a slot for them.
Sounds very promising. Glad to have Honda onboard.
I think I read that Toyota is 2 years ahead of Honda.
https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a4594 ... ery-plans/
"Toyota is aiming to introduce solid-state batteries in 2027, which will be capable of ultra-fast 10 minute recharge times from 10 to 80 percent state of charge."

Anyways that sounds more like mass production issues instead of hand made prod that they would use for F1. You never know in advance on what snag awaits you.

Sherrinford
Sherrinford
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Re: 2025 Aston Martin | Aramco F1 Team

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diffuser wrote:
22 Jan 2025, 12:32
peewon wrote:
21 Jan 2025, 03:58
RedNEO wrote:
21 Jan 2025, 02:42


Honda doesn’t toot its own horn in the same way Merc and Ferrari do. They have been silently working and making progress on the electrical side. The ICE is pretty well known to them and at least they have Cowells expertise to lean on as well.
Yeah lets hope so. But its not just Mercedes tooting their horn. Its other teams, Williams and Alpine making major business decisions to back up that opinion. James Vowels would have a decent idea about how they are doing and he has compared it to 2014. He isnt a guy that I find routinely talking non sense for the sake of it. I just hope its not a 2014 situation and others are at least in the same ballpark.
Trying to read tea leaves again and projecting it as facts? Vowels doesn't have a clue. He is hoping like hell that Merc is better.

Why is it so hard to say "We have no Idea who will have a better PU in 2026?" The truth is that we'll have to wait till 2026 to find out.
Sure, but they know where they are and what parameters they are respecting and if they have even exceeded them. It seems stupid but, even if you do not know the performance of your opponents, they could have anyway seen from the simulations that are really much ahead of the standards. A bit like in 2014.
Last edited by Sherrinford on 23 Jan 2025, 02:26, edited 1 time in total.

Sherrinford
Sherrinford
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Joined: 01 Jun 2024, 00:11

Re: 2025 Aston Martin | Aramco F1 Team

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Sherrinford wrote:
23 Jan 2025, 02:24
diffuser wrote:
22 Jan 2025, 12:32
peewon wrote:
21 Jan 2025, 03:58


Yeah lets hope so. But its not just Mercedes tooting their horn. Its other teams, Williams and Alpine making major business decisions to back up that opinion. James Vowels would have a decent idea about how they are doing and he has compared it to 2014. He isnt a guy that I find routinely talking non sense for the sake of it. I just hope its not a 2014 situation and others are at least in the same ballpark.
Trying to read tea leaves again and projecting it as facts? Vowels doesn't have a clue. He is hoping like hell that Merc is better.

Why is it so hard to say "We have no Idea who will have a better PU in 2026?" The truth is that we'll have to wait till 2026 to find out.
Sure, but they know where they are and what parameters they are respecting and if they have even exceeded them. It seems stupid but, even if you do not know the performance of your opponents, they could have anyway seen from the simulations that are really much ahead of the standards. A bit like in 2014.
By the way, did you hear what Cowell said? I would say finally someone is starting to say that winning next year should be the goal. FINALLY, time is precious you don't know what will happen tomorrow, stop waiting

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FW17
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Re: 2025 Aston Martin | Aramco F1 Team

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This change in ICE regulations is like 2005 to 2006 transition from V10 to V8. No technolgical change, fuel flow is getting reduced.
There could be a turbo lag/power issue if the compromised sizing not taken into account, but then again the token system and freeze on in season engine development is not there as in 2014.

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ispano6
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Re: 2025 Aston Martin | Aramco F1 Team

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FW17 wrote:
23 Jan 2025, 02:46
This change in ICE regulations is like 2005 to 2006 transition from V10 to V8. No technolgical change, fuel flow is getting reduced.
There could be a turbo lag/power issue if the compromised sizing not taken into account, but then again the token system and freeze on in season engine development is not there as in 2014.
100% biofuel and near 50/50 power from ICE and hybrid system is a lot different. I hear the first year will be about energy density and recovery, which is why SS batteries could play an important role in not only weight distribution but also in durability over repeated charge cycles. Honda is keen to use F1 as the testbed but also the proving grounds to market their technology. I expect there to be difficulties and some surprise low key innovations relating to aero surfaces and the use of excess heat that influence flow separation and drag reduction. One clue - there's no more MGU-H from 2026 but something has got to take the heat, and dumping it off to the environment is counter to thermal efficiency.

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FW17
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Re: 2025 Aston Martin | Aramco F1 Team

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ispano6 wrote:
23 Jan 2025, 08:44
FW17 wrote:
23 Jan 2025, 02:46
This change in ICE regulations is like 2005 to 2006 transition from V10 to V8. No technolgical change, fuel flow is getting reduced.
There could be a turbo lag/power issue if the compromised sizing not taken into account, but then again the token system and freeze on in season engine development is not there as in 2014.
100% biofuel and near 50/50 power from ICE and hybrid system is a lot different. I hear the first year will be about energy density and recovery, which is why SS batteries could play an important role in not only weight distribution but also in durability over repeated charge cycles. Honda is keen to use F1 as the testbed but also the proving grounds to market their technology. I expect there to be difficulties and some surprise low key innovations relating to aero surfaces and the use of excess heat that influence flow separation and drag reduction. One clue - there's no more MGU-H from 2026 but something has got to take the heat, and dumping it off to the environment is counter to thermal efficiency.
Fuel source does not matter, it what the fuel energy density that matters, not going to be too different to current.

There is no 50 : 50 power

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RedNEO
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Re: 2025 Aston Martin | Aramco F1 Team

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diffuser
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Location: Montreal

Re: 2025 Aston Martin | Aramco F1 Team

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FW17 wrote:
23 Jan 2025, 10:56
ispano6 wrote:
23 Jan 2025, 08:44
FW17 wrote:
23 Jan 2025, 02:46
This change in ICE regulations is like 2005 to 2006 transition from V10 to V8. No technolgical change, fuel flow is getting reduced.
There could be a turbo lag/power issue if the compromised sizing not taken into account, but then again the token system and freeze on in season engine development is not there as in 2014.
100% biofuel and near 50/50 power from ICE and hybrid system is a lot different. I hear the first year will be about energy density and recovery, which is why SS batteries could play an important role in not only weight distribution but also in durability over repeated charge cycles. Honda is keen to use F1 as the testbed but also the proving grounds to market their technology. I expect there to be difficulties and some surprise low key innovations relating to aero surfaces and the use of excess heat that influence flow separation and drag reduction. One clue - there's no more MGU-H from 2026 but something has got to take the heat, and dumping it off to the environment is counter to thermal efficiency.
Fuel source does not matter, it what the fuel energy density that matters, not going to be too different to current.

There is no 50 : 50 power
Technically, the ICE=Internal Combustion Engine, will not changing that much. The MGU-H, MGU-K and the turbo are all separate entities and part of the PU. How it will be used is gonna change alot though.