Petition to FIA - 2026 rules canceled, V10s in 2028

[Richard C]

Why do you lot have a fetish for nasty old V10s? They are the answer to a question nobody sane asked. V12 too long? Go for a V8.

I personally agree. I think that a V10 is mostly just a strawman proposal given its from a memorable era. A V12 is unlikely, but a V8 could also make sense. As to "answer to a question nobody sane asked". If I remember, in the 3.5/3.0L era, there was a reason (prior to it eventually being mandated) that the V10 was selected by many teams?

Richard

[joseff]

IIRC, in the 3.5L years, the V10 was a compromise between V12 power and V8 weight. When 3.0L became the rule, only Ferrari stuck with the V12 for a year or two (memory hazy, I could be wrong), and they were uncompetitive, finally switching to 10 cylinders.

[ispano6]

I hated the shriek of the V10s as a child. Why would you want to put people through that again. Like some other intelligent people here have said, hydrogen fuel-cell and advanced battery chemistry is the future we should be headed. Combustion engines aren't needed to make F1 interesting, close racing and clever engineering within the boundary and gray-areas of the rules is.

[WardenOfTheNorth]

I hated the shriek of the V10s as a child. Why would you want to put people through that again. Like some other intelligent people here have said, hydrogen fuel-cell and advanced battery chemistry is the future we should be headed. Combustion engines aren't needed to make F1 interesting, close racing and clever engineering within the boundary and gray-areas of the rules is.

This.

The future of most cars is electric, unless some currently unknown tech comes along.

ICE will remain for niche sports cars, but the current synthetic fuels use too much energy to produce to ever be a viable alternative. Same for HFCEV's technology - why waste electricity producing and distributing H2, when you can just use it directly in a BEV.

F1 will do what the manufacturers want. Not what an embattled FIA President has thrown out as a suggestion to distract from his unpopular policies.

[Tommy Cookers]

.... but the current synthetic fuels use too much energy to produce to ever be a viable alternative. Same for HFCEV's technology - why waste electricity producing and distributing H2, when you can just use it directly in a BEV.....

with renewables there is and always will be gluts of energy going unused
ever-increasingly generators are paid billions 'to throw energy away'
so any takeup during these gluts is viable - not 'waste'
(until eg in the UK there's 36 million EVs lending their batteries to the (otherwise intermittent) public electricity supply)

the takeup is fashionably called energy storage
it takes many forms - some are better suited to heat engines than to fuel cells

[Holm86]

I hated the shriek of the V10s as a child. Why would you want to put people through that again. Like some other intelligent people here have said, hydrogen fuel-cell and advanced battery chemistry is the future we should be headed. Combustion engines aren't needed to make F1 interesting, close racing and clever engineering within the boundary and gray-areas of the rules is.

Go watch Formula E of your ears are too sensitive for engine noises???

[basti313]

I hated the shriek of the V10s as a child. Why would you want to put people through that again. Like some other intelligent people here have said, hydrogen fuel-cell and advanced battery chemistry is the future we should be headed. Combustion engines aren't needed to make F1 interesting, close racing and clever engineering within the boundary and gray-areas of the rules is.

Go watch Formula E of your ears are too sensitive for engine noises???

The problem is, that there is a big difference in on-site experience. I never had an issue with the V6 now, especially on the tracks that are nice for spectators. And it is still loud enough that kids need ear protection.
The V10 was clearly over the top, at the current street tracks the whole audience would need ear plugs...similar to back at the day when you saw everyone around the pit lane with ear plugs.

[DChemTech]

I hated the shriek of the V10s as a child. Why would you want to put people through that again. Like some other intelligent people here have said, hydrogen fuel-cell and advanced battery chemistry is the future we should be headed. Combustion engines aren't needed to make F1 interesting, close racing and clever engineering within the boundary and gray-areas of the rules is.

Go watch Formula E of your ears are too sensitive for engine noises???

Why is it that if something is obviously too loud/big/whatever for comfort it's always the ones saying "maybe we should go for something more modest and inclusive" that need to bugger off? Maybe those that mistake loudness for masculinity should go take a hike and watch monster trucks instead, while the rest of us enjoy a more future proof F1.

[fourmula1]

I love my two stroke enduro bike but electric/hybrids have so much potential still. Electric power can be absolutely vicious. Instant torque and HP. I actually look forward to getting a fully electric mx/trail bike. I imagine I will be able to almost infinitely tune throttle map on my phone. And during the winter...so much less maintenance. No old gas going bad.

All in all....don't go backward. The most powerful, efficient, tunable, engines are in our future.

[MattWellsyWells]

Yeah talk of noise is silly - I've been to GPs in the V10, V8 and V6 era - V10s were stupidly loud, even V8s were painfully loud in some places. V6s are loud enough in person but I also like the fact one can hear the crowd at times while watching on TV. The main benefit of NA engines for me would be that the cars could be smaller and lighter and perhaps that would create better racing. But the future doesn't look like it has ICE in it and I say bring on the new, better technology!

[ispano6]

I hated the shriek of the V10s as a child. Why would you want to put people through that again. Like some other intelligent people here have said, hydrogen fuel-cell and advanced battery chemistry is the future we should be headed. Combustion engines aren't needed to make F1 interesting, close racing and clever engineering within the boundary and gray-areas of the rules is.

Go watch Formula E of your ears are too sensitive for engine noises???

I attend Formula 1 races around 2-3 times a year if my schedule permits. Sometimes I'm a guest in the team garages and even if I'm wearing ear protection I can say the current V6's are barely acceptable from a decibel standard in terms of ear damage, especially for you know, CHILDREN. So you're saying don't bring kids to F1 races, make everyone wear ear plugs and then you can't hear the loud speaker or anything else going on.

If you want such loud noises why don't YOU wear a hearing aid and pump up the volume? What if F1 made a rule that there can be V10 engines but the engines had to be within a certain decibel? Would you go watch something else?

[Greg Locock]

I was at Hethel when they took the Lambo V12 out for the first time. That was a terrific sounding engine, everybody piled out of the offices to watch.

[Zynerji]

I was at Hethel when they took the Lambo V12 out for the first time. That was a terrific sounding engine, everybody piled out of the offices to watch.

Attracting eyeballs is what the entire F1 marketing machine exists to do.

But electro-sex fetishistas will always cry about "but muh hybreed"...

[JordanMugen]

Why do you lot have a fetish for nasty old V10s? They are the answer to a question nobody sane asked. V12 too long? Go for a V8.

That's a strange view. The rules were 3.5L and 3.0L swept capacity. The options were reciprocating piston engines with 8, 10 or 12 cylinders (I guess 9 and 11 were also technically allowed, but not practical).

It genuinely turned out that everyone, even Ford the proponents of the DFV V8 and Ferrari the proponents of the flat-12 and V12, choose the 10 cylinders of their own free will, no?

Ford had every opportunity to stick with the, as you suppose "go for a V8", 8 cylinders for the 1996 season but they put those extra two cylinders on of their own free will and initiative.

Of course Toyota wanted to try 12 cylinders again in 2000 but the FIA refused that.

Personally, I certainly would prefer to see 3.2L NA V12s mandated (double the current turbo engine, probably 75-degree like Ferrari in 1995 more suitable than 90-degree though) because if you want a sonorous engine, then do it properly, with a soaring wail and none of this uneven howl 5 per bank business!

If I remember, in the 3.5/3.0L era, there was a reason (prior to it eventually being mandated) that the V10 was selected by many teams?

Richard

Exactly, far from being the "answer to a question no one asked", it was the best choice and everyone chose 10 cylinders willingly of their own free will, not just Mugen Honda not following Honda to the V12 but even Ferrari dropping the V12. I say that as someone who strongly prefers the V12!

[JordanMugen]

I attend Formula 1 races around 2-3 times a year if my schedule permits. Sometimes I'm a guest in the team garages and even if I'm wearing ear protection I can say the current V6's are barely acceptable from a decibel standard in terms of ear damage, especially for you know, CHILDREN. So you're saying don't bring kids to F1 races, make everyone wear ear plugs and then you can't hear the loud speaker or anything else going on.

Other racing categories have mufflers. There is no reason the FIA cannot require mufflers and set a driveby noise limit.

It is tradition that F1 cars do not have mufflers and do not have noise limits, but there is no reason it has to be like that regardless of the engine type.

Frankly, the F1 cars are underwhleming to many spectactors (not everyone is in the garage, many spectators are quite far away) -- even F3 and Carrera Cup are louder and more impressive sounding. It is like going to see AC/DC and them being quiet, people like the visceral thrill especially when it is a V10 or V12 that also has a very, warm pleasant musical tone with nice harmonics (not so much the raspy V8, but they are OK too).

If loud noise is an issue for you, just wear ear plugs under your ear defenders. The attenuation with both ear plugs and over ear defenders is over 30 dBA and prevents the hearing damage. Obviously children, especially small, children must be wearing ear defenders and is incumbent on parents to provide those.

PS. The loud speaker blasting banal commentary is annoying and gets in the way of listening to the engines!

Besides what you are overlooking is that many small explosions^ like in a 4-rotor or V12 Ferrari F1 car are quieter (quite a lot quieter) than many larger explosions in a NASCAR "small" block V8 or similar. So it's a problem that almost solves itself by going to the V12 engine with its nicer tone.

At the Adelaide Motorsport Festival one year they put the Mazda 767B out on track at the same time as NASCARs, and your really couldn't hear the 4-rotor over the NASCARs. Similarly the 1995 Ferrari 412T2 V12 was surprisingly quiet, almost seemingly quieter than the various V8 DFV/DFYs (though obviously the V12 is detuned a lot in historic running while short shifting to save engine life).

^ Yes they are controlled combustion events, not explosions, explosions in an ICE are bad!

FWIW I don't like top-fuel drag racing, it's not strictly because they are comically loud (far more than any F1 car) but it's because I don't particularly like the sound of American small block crossplane V8s. It also seems incredibly wasteful to need to rebuild the engine every 400 metres, even if the process of rebuilding a steaming hot engine is amusing to watch in the paddock!