ALMS Laguna Seca 2009

[Ray]

Fist off I'd like to say congrats to Gil de Ferran on his win and I hope the best for him in his retirement. Well done for a great driver and it was really cool to see him and the Chaparral cars around the track. I'm wondering what everyone though about the fight and ultimate bad crash at the end of the GT2 fight. My feeling is that Bergmeister should have been penalized at the very least, maybe even disqualified. There was no reason for him to do that to Magnussen. I love good hard racing but he crossed the line in a big way in wrecking the Corvette like he did and could have severely hurt Jan. Even the windshield came out of the car when he hit the wall. Overall a great race though.

Gil in the Chaparral

http://www.speedtv.com/video/popup/?bcp ... 4191259001

Last lap and GT2 wreck

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8BwXugrQXaM[/youtube]

[flynfrog]

I came here to post this

I like the vette team but Id say the gloves came off on the corner bump. I would be pissed if I was in the vette but feel just If I was in the Porsche racing --- happens

[Ray]

I disagree. Jan gave him room going into 1 two laps earlier and the Porsche was something like half a second slower per lap for Jans whole stint. He caught him but couldn't pass, and since Jorg knew that he drove him over towards the wall. That's called blocking and as far as I know it's against the rules. Jorg cause a very bad accident that could have been avoided and wasn't penalized. Jan bumping him in the final turn wouldn't have caused an accident anywhere near this. Corvette was penalized for causing a huge crash earlier in the race, Jan went off track to pass Jorg and was penalized, and Jorg drives a car all the way to the wall and causes a massive accident and could have severely hurt Jan and it's just racing? Please.

[flynfrog]

I disagree. Jan gave him room going into 1 two laps earlier and the Porsche was something like half a second slower per lap for Jans whole stint. He caught him but couldn't pass, and since Jorg knew that he drove him over towards the wall. That's called blocking and as far as I know it's against the rules. Jorg cause a very bad accident that could have been avoided and wasn't penalized. Jan bumping him in the final turn wouldn't have caused an accident anywhere near this. Corvette was penalized for causing a huge crash earlier in the race, Jan went off track to pass Jorg and was penalized, and Jorg drives a car all the way to the wall and causes a massive accident and could have severely hurt Jan and it's just racing? Please.

meh the vette hit eh Porsche in the last turn. All bets are off at that point.

These are not guys in arm chairs they are in race cars you are telling me you would let the other car by.

[Ray]

These are not guys in arm chairs they are in race cars you are telling me you would let the other car by.

No I'm saying that driving another competitor into a wall and forcing them into a crash is uncalled for and should be penalized. Jan didn't hit Jorg hard enough to even spin him out in the previous corner. He barely got sideways. But Jan hit the wall hard enough that his windshield came out of his car because of being forced into the wall. Corvette got penalized for causing a crash, I admit that they weren't actively racing a particular car but still caused a wreck, and Porsche did not. It's the same inconsistent ruling that goes on in Formula 1. That's all I'm saying. Regardless of who was involved, it's not a consistent ruling. Then again all Porsche and Ferrari have done is bitch about the Corvettes being faster since they entered GT2 so I have no sympathy for whiners, which some might view my opinion as!

[flynfrog]

The vette could have braked it was a high speed of chicken the vette called his bluff but the porshe came out ahead in the end. Not saying it was the cleanest more gentlemanly racing ive seen but come on its racing not dueling

[WhiteBlue]

Bergmeister was driving dirty by pushing him into the wall. That is not ok at all. You have got to give the other guy enough room to stay on track. They were on a straight and there can be no excuse that Bergmeister defended his line. This was simply driving a competitor intentionally into a wall with potentially desastrous consequences. If the organizers condone such driving they will find that people will not want to be with Bergmeister on a track anymore. The guy is sick.

[vyselegend]

Thanks for the vid Ray.

From the video it's obvious the Porsche was strugling for pace to keep the vette behind, so Bergmeister was over-defensive for several laps in a bid to hold on till the checkered flag. In turn one of the last lap he's already taking an unnecessary wide line just to block Magnussen, which IMO is still OK there but on the limit already since he pushes him off track.
But in the last corner, Magnussen goes violently and touch the Porsche, unbalancing it, which makes me think Bergmeister's blocking on the strait is motivated by angryness as much as desper. And that is not acceptable, in any professional racing!
The crash is hard and could have injured Jan badly.
Thought, I wouldn't fire too much on Bergmeister, since the corvette racing guys are not the last ones when it comes to rough racing (sometimes over the limit). Over the past years they were more than often slamming each other (even in the pits), blocking, brushing etc...

Congratulation to De Ferran and his team, I personally will regret him, and the team also if they leave LM racing. Gil said in an interview that he planned to continue with Acura next year, although he admited nothing was certain. I hope they stay like they are and don't move to IRL or anything, but just keep racing in ALMS. Wonder who will replace Gil alongside Pagenaud then? Probably Scott Dixon, depending on his schedule.

[modbaraban]

But in the last corner, Magnussen goes violently and touch the Porsche, unbalancing it, which makes me think Bergmeister's blocking on the strait is motivated by angryness as much as desper. And that is not acceptable, in any professional racing!

I absolutely agree. Bergmeister should have been disqualified or suspended for that. He may think that Jan made a technical foul there tapping him from behind, but it's for stewards to deliver punishments if necessary not him.

meh the vette hit eh Porsche in the last turn. All bets are off at that point.

Anyone with that attitude should be banned professional from racing for life. [-X

edit: typo

[Ciro Pabón]

You could respectfully think that Bergmeister kept himself within the rules because he moved toward one side and one side only. That's not blocking in the Sporting Code I know.

Perhaps Magnussen knew he didn't have the time to tap the brakes, move towards the right and overtake him before the finish line, so he kept going towards the left side. Unfortunately that was the same side Bergmeister was allowed to move.

You could bet that in any other lap, Bergmeister could have given him room to pass, maybe out of courtesy (not because he was breaking any rule), and more in fear of damaging the left side of his car, but, c'mon, it was the last lap!

What do you expect in the last lap? If you drive defensively, you know that anything can happen in any lap, but something will happen in the last one (unless you drive cars with real power: then you have more trouble with the car than problems with your opponents, and last laps are, usually, a solitary bussiness).

I think last lap "enthusiasm" is much worse in NASCAR and nobody's banned for a day, much less for life. Karters also have a kind of kamikaze style in the last lap, if you ask me. At least my friends seem a bunch of crazy falcons chasing a dove, fighting more among themselves than with the guy in front.

Stock and ALMS are slower than F1, so, in my book, it's not a criminal move, it's merely temerary. That's a temerary move by both drivers: you could think that Magnussen knew he had no room.

It's not like they started the last straight side by side, you can move sideways once, and I think that if you don't know you can, you will lose every kart race with a close final. Maybe if you watch enough "smaller series", like BTCC, DTM, V8 Supercar or ALMS you could learn more about the fine line between legal and illegal moves: some seem frankly rude at first sight.

The spirit of a gentleman includes certain leniency when competition is involved, but also includes the strange bravery that leads you to receive hard "legal" hits with a smile and with the aim of learning. There are some situations you shouldn't poke your nose in (or if you do, you do it at your own peril, either for the team or out of desperation).

[flynfrog]

You could respectfully think that Bergmeister kept himself within the rules because he moved toward one side and one side only. That's not blocking in the Sporting Code I know.

Perhaps Magnussen knew he didn't have the time to tap the brakes, move towards the right and overtake him before the finish line, so he kept going towards the left side. Unfortunately that was the same side Bergmeister was allowed to move.

You could bet that in any other lap, Bergmeister could have given him room to pass, maybe out of courtesy (not because he was breaking any rule), and more in fear of damaging the left side of his car, but, c'mon, it was the last lap!

What do you expect in the last lap? If you drive defensively, you know that anything can happen in any lap, but something will happen in the last one (unless you drive cars with real power: then you have more trouble with the car than problems with your opponents, and last laps are, usually, a solitary bussiness).

I think last lap "enthusiasm" is much worse in NASCAR and nobody's banned for a day, much less for life. Karters also have a kind of kamikaze style in the last lap, if you ask me. At least my friends seem a bunch of crazy falcons chasing a dove, fighting more among themselves than with the guy in front.

Stock and ALMS are slower than F1, so, in my book, it's not a criminal move, it's merely temerary. That's a temerary move by both drivers: you could think that Magnussen knew he had no room.

It's not like they started the last straight side by side, you can move sideways once, and I think that if you don't know you can, you will lose every kart race with a close final. Maybe if you watch enough "smaller series", like BTCC, DTM, V8 Supercar or ALMS you could learn more about the fine line between legal and illegal moves: some seem frankly rude at first sight.

The spirit of a gentleman includes certain leniency when competition is involved, but also includes the strange bravery that leads you to receive hard "legal" hits with a smile and with the aim of learning. There are some situations you shouldn't poke your nose in (or if you do, you do it at your own peril, either for the team or out of desperation).

sure now you come to back me up after I have already had my licenses to life revoked.

[Ciro Pabón]

You actually have a license to life? Where can I get one?

[flynfrog]

You actually have a license to life? Where can I get one?

you get it when you get your man card

[Ray]

Call it what you want, say what you want, make all the excuses that you want. Just because the rules say you can move once doesn't give you the go-ahead to drive someone into a wall and risk their safety. You can bet your ass whiny Jorg Bergmeister would be crying his fool head off if the roles were reversed. The idiot even told the camera, with a straight face no less, that he hoped Jan was okay. No he didn't. If he didn't want him to get hurt he wouldn't have pulled the move on him.

If you think that's fair racing it's a good thing you aren't a professional. Because that --- would stop at that level, Bergmeister is going to get his due one day. A bump on the rear is not the same as the move he pulled. Jan gave him plenty of room on his attempted passes in the previous laps to keep from hit Jorg, and on the last lap Jorg was blocking big time. That was his only option, block a car that was .5s a lap faster than him for an entire stint. Glad I'm not on a track with you.

I like good hard racing, the last 10 minutes of the race in GT2 was the best I've seen all year in any racing series on earth. Blocking is blocking, last lap or not. Bergmeister pulled a dangerous move, end of story. But I guess making sure that Porsche got that 100th win was important to the series rather than maintaining integrity and safe fair competition.

[Ciro Pabón]

Man card? Shees. That's might be the reason why I'm not that macho, right? I don't know what would have done: cowardice is full of subtleties. If I were Magnussen, I would have stepped on the brakes, if Bergmeister, I would have lost that race.

Besides, I'm not supporting you, flyn. I'm supporting (kind of) Bergmeister. For example, you said that the bump justified the move. I dare to disagree: no previous bump justifies an illegal move. Maybe it's wiser to take every hit "independently" from others you might have, even in the same lap, and even from the same moron, not because you have to, but because if people learns that you can become enraged by a bump, then you're toasted (at least, when racing with my friends who are an indecent, unpresentable, dreadful and untidy lot of colombians).

Ray, you might be right, but the book says something else, I think. Anyway, go on, I won't interfere.

The move was dangerous, but I think that Magnussen should have moved towards the right, that's what you're taugth to do: one move toward one side and then full throttle towards the other. Then you cannot be blocked within the rules.

I repeat you might be right as far as "normal decency" is involved, Bergmeister should know he was going to slam Magnussen into the wall, but, looking at that from Magnussen's race director, perhaps you can be smarter than putting yourself into the wall that is "closed", Bergmeister trajectory was clear from the start of the move. Actually, my first though, before the accident happened, was: why's he (that is, Magnussen) trying to overtake on the left?

I've defended my position many times in my life, and as far as I move towards one side, I think that my adversary knows what I'm doing and moves accordingly.