ALMS Laguna Seca 2009

[Ciro Pabón]

Man card? Shees. That's might be the reason why I'm not that macho, right? I don't know what would have done: cowardice is full of subtleties. If I were Magnussen, I would have stepped on the brakes, if Bergmeister, I would have lost that race.

Besides, I'm not supporting you, flyn. I'm supporting (kind of) Bergmeister. For example, you said that the bump justified the move. I dare to disagree: no previous bump justifies an illegal move. Maybe it's wiser to take every hit "independently" from others you might have, even in the same lap, and even from the same moron, not because you have to, but because if people learns that you can become enraged by a bump, then you're toasted (at least, when racing with my friends who are an indecent, unpresentable, dreadful and untidy lot of colombians).

Ray, you might be right, but the book says something else, I think. Anyway, go on, I won't interfere.

The move was dangerous, but I think that Magnussen should have moved towards the right, that's what you're taugth to do: one move toward one side and then full throttle towards the other. Then you cannot be blocked within the rules.

I repeat you might be right as far as "normal decency" is involved, Bergmeister should know he was going to slam Magnussen into the wall, but, looking at that from Magnussen's race director point of view, perhaps you can tell your driver to be smarter than putting himself into the wall that is "closed": Bergmeister trajectory was clear from the start of the move. Actually, my first though, before the accident happened, was: why's he (that is, Magnussen) trying to overtake on the left?

I've defended my position many times in my life, and as far as I move towards one side, I think that my adversary knows what I'm doing and moves accordingly.

[flynfrog]

Man card? Shees. That's might be the reason why I'm not that macho, right? I don't know what would have done: cowardice is full of subtleties. If I were Magnussen, I would have stepped on the brakes, if Bergmeister, I would have lost that race.

Besides, I'm not supporting you, flyn. I'm supporting (kind of) Bergmeister. For example, you said that the bump justified the move. I dare to disagree: no previous bump justifies an illegal move. Maybe it's wiser to take every hit "independently" from others you might have, even in the same lap, and even from the same moron, not because you have to, but because if people learns that you can become enraged by a bump, then you're toasted (at least, when racing with my friends who are an indecent, unpresentable, dreadful and untidy lot of colombians).

Ray, you might be right, but the book says something else, I think. Anyway, go on, I won't interfere.

The move was dangerous, but I think that Magnussen should have moved towards the right, that's what you're taugth to do: one move toward one side and then full throttle towards the other. Then you cannot be blocked within the rules.

I repeat you might be right as far as "normal decency" is involved, Bergmeister should know he was going to slam Magnussen into the wall, but, looking at that from Magnussen's race director, perhaps you can be smarter than putting yourself into the wall that is "closed", Bergmeister trajectory was clear from the start of the move. Actually, my first though, before the accident happened, was: why's he (that is, Magnussen) trying to overtake on the left?

I've defended my position many times in my life, and as far as I move towards one side, I think that my adversary knows what I'm doing and moves accordingly.

valid point and I agree you shouldnt hold a grudge. If Jan would have braked he would not have crashed Id say he is at as much fault

[modbaraban]

Perhaps Magnussen knew he didn't have the time to tap the brakes, move towards the right and overtake him before the finish line, so he kept going towards the left side. Unfortunately that was the same side Bergmeister was allowed to move.

It's like you didn't see the incident.

I read the sporting code some time ago and clearly remember it saying that you can choose your line freely UNLESS you're side by side with another car. Nobody is allowed to ram another car or drive it off the road, let alone intentionally.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LrLKbZcL3TA[/youtube]

Jorg kept turning left long after the Vette was there. You can get a season-long ban for something like that unless your initials are MS

[WhiteBlue]

Defending you line is meant to put you in position for the next corner. In this case there wasn't any corner to make any more. It was a clear drag race to the flag. If you drive your competitor into a wall this way you are an asshole and not a sportsman. All the rationalizing will not change that.

If Bergmeister had apologized after the race and said he misjudged the room and it was his fault I would have had a certain understanding for playing hardball this way. But it was obviously intentional and that is unacceptable.

[Ciro Pabón]

Well, yes, after watching the incident again, it's clear both cars were side by side. The Porsche could have moved before the Vette was on his left side, but, apparently, the Porsche closed the door after that.

On first sight, I thought the Porsche had clipped the right front corner of the Vette. If that were true, the fault would be with the Vette, afaik. However, watching it in slow motion I see now that it was a side by side crash. Sorry, my mistake. I would be even surer if there were a side picture or video, to show the relative position of both cars in the longitudinal direction. I wonder why the marshalls did nothing, I assume (as I always do) that they should have a reason. It would be nice to read their decision, because I assume Magnussen team would have filed a complain.

I disagree with WB: you can move once, even in a straight, afaik.

There is no proviso for straights that makes them different from curves, or is it, WB? Could you be so kind as to post it? Anyway, I insist that I've moved many times in that fashion, before the adversary's car was at my side, in the final straight, without being penalized. That's the whole idea (when you're overtaking) of "luring" the car in front towards one side before making your move using the other side.

I tried to google for "rules on defending your position" but found nothing relevant, most hits were Amazon books.

Can somebody point us into a good text on that subject? I'm limited right now to the single phrase in the Sporting Code appendix that refers to this subject and my limited experience as kart marshal and kart instructor.

[Giblet]

That is a tough call.

From the video, it looks like both drivers made an error. I can see the Porsche drivers thoughts "He thinks he can bump me and have the traction to win? I AM NOT LOSING THAT WAY."

While the Vette was thinking "--- I bumped him, it wasn't on purpose, but I am a race driver, and I have already moved on form the bump, and will keep it into the floor until the I cross the line. If they take the win away from me for the bump, then so be it.".

crash tinkle tinkle.

In the end, the Porsche forced the Vette into a game of "Parallel wall chicken", and the Vette had little choice but go for it.

The Vette made a mistake, the Porsche tried to be dastardly. A fine example of red mist.

[dumrick]

It's not like IMSA did nothing to punish the drivers: they are both under probation for the first 2 races of 2010.

I basically agree with Giblet:
In my view, to understand the dynamic of the thing we must realise that the Corvette has more torque than the 911, but the later has better traction out of corners. Bergmeister explored that to come out of turn 10 (the one before the final turn) comfortably ahead of Magnussen. Then, played conservatively the last turn to accelerate into the finish line (the Corvette's torque advantage was only enough to catch the Porsche in the end of the main straight, as demonstrated by the previous lap, so Bergmeister kind of had the win in its hands exiting turn 10).
As far as I can see, Magnussen braked too late into the final corner, perhaps a mistake, perhaps a deliberate move to ram the Porsche like he did. That manouver was required to unsettle the Porsche and prevent Bergmeister to accelerate as early as he could (struggling with added speed from the bump and the oversteering of the car). From that point on, Magnussen had no option: he was on the inside and only could win persisting on the left, since lifting the throttle to dive on the other side would mean a loss of the momentum he had.
Bergmeister was ahead at the start of the straight, but couldn't close on the left until the wall, since the front of the Corvette was already on the side of his back end: he would have Sebring 2008 back again if he did it. When he could finally do it, it was already too late to prevent the Corvette from going ahead and finally nudged him, possibly out of anger and frustration at Magnussen's manouver on the corner.

I think it is fair to punish them both equally, in the end.

[WhiteBlue]

I disagree with WB: you can move once, even in a straight, afaik.

There is no proviso for straights that makes them different from curves, or is it, WB? Could you be so kind as to post it?

I only have the application of common sense. Why do we have the rule that you can move once on a straight? Obviosly because you want to select your line and if you are ahead it is your right to select any line you want. Now that we have this clear we have to think how it applies to a final straight. The is no following corner which would entitle you to select and defend your line. So in my view (remember common sense) you have no right to cut across a competitor and drive him off track. It is only condoned if you own the corner and are committed. Then the opponent has to yield in my view.

It would be completely different if this were a start straight and not a finish straigth. Then first corner would come into it. I'm glad both guys got punished. Magnusson drove into Bergmeister's Porsche in the last corner and the stewards probably felt that this was deliberate as well. The way Bergmeister kept that Porsche going through the last corner was really great. I still don't like him for his later red mist.

[Ciro Pabón]

I only have the application of common sense. Why do we have the rule that you can move once on a straight? Obviosly because you want to select your line and if you are ahead it is your right to select any line you want. Now that we have this clear we have to think how it applies to a final straight.

Well, I don't know the theory, I just know that I spend half of the racing defending position. I don't "move aside" in straights, if I'm about to be overtaken I cross the track to block as much as I can the initial racing line of the car behind, because that gives me 1 second or so. That includes every straight, specially the last one.

[WhiteBlue]

Well we obviously perceive a different spirit of the rule.

[vyselegend]

Why do we have the rule that you can move once on a straight? Obviosly because you want to select your line and if you are ahead it is your right to select any line you want.

I disagree on that one. I think you are allowed to move once on a straight because you are allowed to defend your position! What is forbidden is to swerve and block a faster car totally, but, thankfully, you're not condemned to act like the AI cars in Gran Turismo and peacefully let yourself overtaken by any faster car!
Sure this is crucialy related to your need of selecting a line for the next corner indeed, since you're not allowed to change line more than once. (which means you can't swerve and then choose another line, but you can for instance go left line to defend, then back on the right before the corner for optimal line).

As Ciro stated, you're especially supposed to to that on the last straight, since you don't bother which line takes you to the corner.

In the end I think it is irrelevant here anyway, since, as Modbaraban said, the cars were side by side already, so it's not a case of choosing your line, but simply a case of crashing your opponent into a wall...

[WhiteBlue]

In the end I think it is irrelevant here anyway, since, as Modbaraban said, the cars were side by side already, so it's not a case of choosing your line, but simply a case of crashing your opponent into a wall...

I agree with that.

[Ciro Pabón]

Count me in.

[Carlos]

“I’m definitely sorry Jan went into the wall,” Bergmeister said. “I didn’t want that to happen. But it was a banging game. I’m glad he’s OK. It was tough racing. The Corvette passed me the first time at the hairpin but he went in way too deep and I was able to get back around him. He was a little quicker I have to say. I wasn’t trying to figure out where he was gaining time on me. I was trying to stay on track and in front.” It was the last in a number of moments between the two cars in the final hour. The two cars swapped positions numerous times and ran nose-to-tail for much of the final half-hour. IMSA released this statement about the incident on Monday: "Following the closing laps and finish of the GT2 race Saturday at Mazda Raceway Laguna Seca, IMSA officials placed Jörg Bergmeister and Jan Magnussen on a two-race probation period for the start of the 2010 season with a minimum two race suspension in abeyance. Should either driver commit further offenses in the first two rounds of 2010, the participant will receive at minimum a two-race ban from competition by IMSA, which sanctions the American Le Mans Series." From Autoextremist.

ALMS and IndyCar Championship Wrapups:
http://www.autoextremist.com/the-line1/

[West]

http://forums.corvetteforum.com/autocro ... ter-7.html

In the middle of the page, the Corvette is already ahead of the Porsche. However, the wall on the left turns into the track and Jan has nowhere to go.

If you follow the thread, you can get insight from Lou Gigliotti (LG Corvette) himself.