Lotus T127 Cosworth

[czt]

For what its worth:

The model is an entirely new model manufactured by Fondtech on behalf of Lotus F1 Racing, and is based on a 2010 spec chassis geometry designed at our Design Office in Cologne, and includes a fuel tank to comply with the 2010 ban on refuelling and associated increase in wheelbase caused by these regulations.

Source + More: http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpass_ ... t_id=39381

Interestingly, he doesnt mention the front wing.

Was just going to post this myself!

Like you say, interesting that the front wing, rear wing, brake duct shape and bargeboards were not mentioned...

I also like how he reckons the confusion has come from the use of 2009 spec tyres - but how would a new team have obtained such things given they only formed a few weeks ago?

I think pitpass need to go back with a few more questions!!

[Belatti]

I cant see whats the problem in borrowing an old 1/2 scale model, make a couple of modifications to it and run it in a windtunnel.

Even if thats the case... or not. WHATS THE BIG DEAL?

I mean, with some type of technology that exists you can actually take a pic of a rivals car standing in the pits, plot it in 3D and run it yourself in the WT.

Yes! If McLaren or Ferrari were interested in it, they could build a 1/1 RBR or Brawn just to see what happends

[Astro1]

I think that the car was clearly designed from the same base model as the FI regardless of Gasconye's claims. I just don't buy it.

"the bodywork is the first iteration version of current trends...but will rapidly evolve"

[-X I was under the impression that the Brawn/RBR concepts were the current trends not the 09 FI base model?

If you're going with current trends why not go with the best? Surely that alone brings a BIG DOUBT to his claim.

Then their are his ties to FI design team and somehow this car looks practically identical?

And where did they get this model?

He comments on the idea that it has a larger fuel tank and consequently a different wheelbase to balance the car but that doesn't change the fact that the design of this car originated from the FI's original model. You can take any car on the grid, fit it with a larger tank and change the wheelbase necessitating some suspension changes, but that doesn't make it a different car LOL which is what he is claiming.

What Lotus has done, is taken some 2010 ideas and changed the chassis geometry of the FI to accommodate a larger tank while running unchanged aero from the FI launch. That is the final extent of the cars originality.

The car has more detail similarities than differences.

This move by Lotus is nothing more than an attempt at a quick way to legitimize their F1 entry for 2010 in an environment where questions are being raised about the ability of the new entrants to compete, having nothing more to work with or from than Gasconye's previous FI effort. =D>

Maybe it's different, and there are elements that are different that that of the FI car, but the core element of the design, the BASE is too similar to just agree with.

[czt]

I cant see whats the problem in borrowing an old 1/2 scale model, make a couple of modifications to it and run it in a windtunnel.

Even if thats the case... or not. WHATS THE BIG DEAL?

I think the problem lies when you don't have permission to borrow from the owner of said 1/2 scale model!

[LotusF1]

Interesting - so you work for LF1 then? Maybe we should meet as you're down the road from me. Maybe you can explain how the identical parts to FI's are acually 100% Lotus own design

again..your silly..you speak without knowing the truth and continue talking..silly imo..but if it makes you happy so be it..

I'll wait for the courts verdict.

no one will go to court...hahaha...

[axle]

no one will go to court...hahaha...

Wonderful.

[axle]

I cant see whats the problem in borrowing an old 1/2 scale model, make a couple of modifications to it and run it in a windtunnel.

Even if thats the case... or not. WHATS THE BIG DEAL?

I think the problem lies when you don't have permission to borrow from the owner of said 1/2 scale model!

That and the IP that goes with it.

Then there is the IP, LF1 have had full access to another car which has basically sowed the seeds for next years one. Talk about a massive shortcut. I don't mind copying in F1, but I think literally using someone elses model without permission is utterly beyond reproach.

However, LF1 and their patsy on here have denied it consistantly so either things will get sorted out behind closed doors or in a court. As there is too much evidence to dismiss.

[gibells]

Looking at the depth of the sidepods [admittedly from an orthographical view] reveals that the tub is longer than the current crop. Surely the rest is all just hypothesis on our part?

[Belatti]

I cant see whats the problem in borrowing an old 1/2 scale model, make a couple of modifications to it and run it in a windtunnel.

Even if thats the case... or not. WHATS THE BIG DEAL?

I think the problem lies when you don't have permission to borrow from the owner of said 1/2 scale model!

That and the IP that goes with it. Those tyres are owned by FI on lease from Bridgestone. If FI don't return them to Bridgestone they get their allocation cut next year. So for a team to waltz in a take their tyres for their model is a bit rich.

Then there is the IP, LF1 have had full access to another car which has basically sowed the seeds for next years one. Talk about a massive shortcut. I don't mind copying in F1, but I think literally using someone elses model without permission is utterly beyond reproach.

However, LF1 and their patsy on here have denied it consistantly so either things will get sorted out behind closed doors or in a court. As there is too much evidence to dismiss.

Still, not big deal. You watch too much TV or read too much web pages

[Richard]

I cant see whats the problem in borrowing an old 1/2 scale model, make a couple of modifications to it and run it in a windtunnel.

Even if thats the case... or not. WHATS THE BIG DEAL?

=D>

I think the problem lies when you don't have permission to borrow from the owner of said 1/2 scale model!

That and the IP that goes with it. Those tyres are owned by FI on lease from Bridgestone. If FI don't return them to Bridgestone they get their allocation cut next year. So for a team to waltz in a take their tyres for their model is a bit rich.

Then there is the IP, LF1 have had full access to another car which has basically sowed the seeds for next years one. Talk about a massive shortcut. I don't mind copying in F1, but I think literally using someone elses model without permission is utterly beyond reproach.

However, LF1 and their patsy on here have denied it consistantly so either things will get sorted out behind closed doors or in a court. As there is too much evidence to dismiss.

That is all conjecture, bordering on libel. Please stop it.

[bjpower]

I cant see whats the problem in borrowing an old 1/2 scale model, make a couple of modifications to it and run it in a windtunnel.

Even if thats the case... or not. WHATS THE BIG DEAL?

I think the problem lies when you don't have permission to borrow from the owner of said 1/2 scale model!

I admit i haven't read allot of this thread.
but how exactly do you sneek that out of the FI wind tunnel/factory?
large coat maybe.

[axle]

That is all conjecture, bordering on libel. Please stop it.

No it isn't, Richard. However I am happy to stop as the evidence is there. I know that FI are looking at legal action and so I'll happily wait till that is sorted before worrying about running on in this thread.

I don't believe LF1's model is entirely their own. That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it. If FI are later convinced that that is not partially their model then I'll change my tune too, as I'm man enough to do that.

That's all from me in this thread.

[scarbs]

I have spoken to Mike Gascoyne and FI. FI are investigating and will consider their options dependng on its outcome. MG affirmed the model is 100% Lotus design and parts designed and made exclusively for Lotus. the wheels are not those used in the tunnel as they are 2009 spec and the car is running 2010 tyres in the tunnel. They are simply used to support the model in the set up room, hence the wrong directional fitment and odd rear geometry, I dont see anythign untoward there.
The car bears several key differences to the VJM02; fuel tank, wheelbase, sidepods, engine, gearbox and rear suspension. This necesitates a new model, so at best the argument can only be about a few parts, not the entire model.

Hopefully we can stop the debate on the IP of the model. until more information comes out.

[czt]

I have spoken to Mike Gascoyne and FI. FI are investigating and will consider their options dependng on its outcome. MG affirmed the model is 100% Lotus design and parts designed and made exclusively for Lotus. the wheels are not those used in the tunnel as they are 2009 spec and the car is running 2010 tyres in the tunnel. They are simply used to support the model in the set up room, hence the wrong directional fitment and odd rear geometry, I dont see anythign untoward there.
The car bears several key differences to the VJM02; fuel tank, wheelbase, sidepods, engine, gearbox and rear suspension. This necesitates a new model, so at best the argument can only be about a few parts, not the entire model.

Hopefully we can stop the debate on the IP of the model. until more information comes out.

Why would Lotus have 2009 spec wheels and tyres? Lola didn't have proper pneumatic tyres on their wind tunnel model and they had a lot more prep time that the Lotus effort.

I don't believe those wheels are bolted to the uprights, hence the uneven cambers and inconsistent positioning of the rims relative to the brake ducts (see the head on shot in particular). I would suggest that the model is a wheels off model, sitting on some blocks placed under the floor, with the suspension drooping onto some wheels positioned roughly in the correct place. Even if it were true that they were being used to support the model on the surface table, you wouldn't expect the geometry to be so far out - it's supposed to be replicating a real car!!

Of course the car has differences to the Force India in the areas you've mentioned - it's a 2010 car, so those changes are bound to have been made. The front wing, front brake ducts, front barge boards, rear wing, and even engine inlet are all pure 2009 Force India!

[TRICKLE69]

I cannot believe that anyone can think that the model was actually stolen from FI and then showed to the world. Maybe a partial design copy but stolen...doubt it.