Is the recipe for PASSING realy that difficult?

[gator]

have you guys watched Formula Ford racing? Very low power and pretty good grip and the overtaking is amazing...

having raced FF in the past I must disagree somewhat on their grip levels and the comparison you are making. the car relied on mechanical grip, but as there are no aerodynamic devices the comparison just doesn't relate. also, the power to weight of FF meant that the driver had to be smart with the gas pedal, so while I agree that the engines make less power, it was more than enough to distiguish the men from the boys.

Have you ever seen an IRL/CART/Champcar race? There is plenty of overtaking and no problems with downforce.

while there are a few good tracks these series run, i believe that the street course type races that they run are horrible. all the bumpy "point and shoot" type tracks should not be called races, they should be called demonstrations. in the instances where its very bumpy the areo bits on the bottom aren't doing much, and the wings are adjusted for max downforce no matter what the drag penalties are. just doesn't sound like the type of place to showcase and race something hundreds of engineers devote their lives to. some passing does take place if thats really what you want, i just don't think it shows off the performace aspects of the cars as well as a "true" track would. unless you want to show off the reliability and durability aspect of the cars...


as for what I think should be done to facilitate more passing... well, I'll let the people who really know what the air around one of these cars is doing tell me what needs to be done, and I'll go with that. (It still amazes me that they allowed the DDD, I will say I hope they do away with it for next year. I also like how the teams all came together and made the agreement to not run KERS next year. It aparently wasn't that helpful after all, I mean just look what happened to Kimi as Webber shut the door on him in Brazil last weekend. ) I also wonder what the skinnier front tire will do for the grip balance for next year. I hope someone who knows what they are doing tweaks things just a bit over the winter and I think if the lawyers don't screw it up during the season (like this year) we should have a good year next year.

Also, just want to say. Long time reader, just recently registered, and this is my first post here. And this site really is the best place to follow F1 and I look forward for whats to come. I really look forward to the driver's "musical chairs" game at the end of the season and over the winter, and how Alonso adapts to his new seat next year.

Cheers,
Gator

[WhiteBlue]

Most people seem to agree that excessive downforce contributes to the lack of passing. Unfortunately this will not be corrected in a short time. For 2010 the DDDs are carved in stone and it takes a unanimous decision to drop them for 2011. That unity is never going to happen and it hardly is a safety issue. So we will be stuck with much more downforce than desirable. The only hope will be for an energy related shake up with a new engine/KERS formula. I'm afraid the current Concord will run out before that is agreed and everything will be pushed on the back burner until 2013.

[astracrazy]

I really believe that the lack of overtaking is largly due to stopping distances. I understand there are other ways of overtaking which are difficult at the moment i.e because of aero etc. But what about if the brakes werent as good and the stopping distances increased by 50-100ft? would we see more overtaking?

[tommylommykins]

Braking is currently limited by tyre performance rather than brake-disc ability.

I would imagine limiting retardation by reducing the ability of the brakes to slow the car down would be very hard to implement.

[Crazy Bored]

The braking distances actually decreased this year due to the slicks. I guess that's because even with less aero you're not at high speed for very long if you brake hard in an F1 car.

For example, in Barcelona the braking distances were anywhere from 1% to 68% shorter than the 2008 braking distances.
http://www.racecar-engineering.com/arti ... dated.html

It seems a lot of the time there is a similar initial speed when braking but a much higher final speed when the brakes are released, I would assume this is due to the slicks providing more mechanical grip.

So it seems if you are specifically looking into reducing braking distances it can be done easier by changing the mechanical grip, not so much the aero grip.

[marcush.]

I really believe that the lack of overtaking is largly due to stopping distances. I understand there are other ways of overtaking which are difficult at the moment i.e because of aero etc. But what about if the brakes werent as good and the stopping distances increased by 50-100ft? would we see more overtaking?

I don´t think you ´d see any difference.
As all cars would have the same potential + we don´t see different fuel loads next season ,there is just no way to find a possibility to outbrake another guy.
Any ways what is outbraking? In my view this is more a mind game of intimidating your opponent.If the other guy is a coolsock he will get you at the exit and the game starts fresh.

[firefly]

I say it's the tracks. Heck, I've saying it for years now.

Yeah i think that's part of the reason. Circuits like Interlagos and Spa have more overtakes usually. Interestingly, in both of these circuits, the cars run comprimised setups (both being stop and go in sector 1 and 3, while in sector 2 they need downforce to tackle the corners)

[wesley123]

The solution is very simple. Limit the downforce to 1,25 tons as the OWG was briefed to do. But then they created a bunch of loop holes including DDDs and the dowenforce is back to over two tons. As a consequence you have much more grip than they were meant to have and more dirty air.

If there is an absolute limit of downforce teams cannot focus on more downforce, they will focus on getting that downforce with the least drag. It would improve the fuel efficiency massively and bring more passing.

it was said multiple times before that the DDD doesnt increase the dirty air.

The problem in overtaking isnt the cars or the tracks, it is the drivers, they are all way too soft right now, also the overtaking rules dont help either, the rule that you can get off your line once is rubbish. Really, it is racing so you should let the guys race, button was complaining about kobayashi as he broke the mentioned rule, really i hate that, all kobayashi was doing was racing, i enjoyed it when i saw him racing with others, we need such drivers, who dares to overtake or block, and not those current pussies who complain about 'unsafe' driving etc. for example, hamilton is called 'arrogant' for his actions on the track, never knew that you are arrogant when you are racing nd dare to make such actions, we just need more guys like kobayashi and hamilton, and not crying babies like webber, alonso and button who complain about every action that is done on the track. As long as the drivers dont dare to overtake nothing is gonna help the overtaking.

[silverwood]

Drivers if you ask me, the cars obviously have the potential to take each other. Obviously some drivers are faster than others, even when in the same car, this to me points the finger at drivers not willing to take that risk and race, the one move to attack/defend your place isnt good for racing. but with open wheel racing it really does make sense!

[marcush.]

So I quote myself for the first time:

so yes its that difficult.

-how about that :any driver not completing at least 2 clean passes of a competitor racing for position in the current season will not be eligible for a superlicense the following year.

I feel this would make sure you have to take risks ,but you have to make sure not to take someone out.
Passing is an art.Some guys have it some guys learn it some just seem unable or have no clue .
Passing is not something related to car performance if there is not a huge difference in potential of the car e.g.running on fresh tyre ,cold tyre,used up tyre,
high fuel load -low fuel load -car setup tailored for high speed sector car tailored for twisty sectors on tracks which allow equal laptimes with different setup strategies...

[Giblet]

Edit: replying to wrong forum

Too many windows open.

[WhiteBlue]

The solution is very simple. Limit the downforce to 1,25 tons as the OWG was briefed to do. But then they created a bunch of loop holes including DDDs and the dowenforce is back to over two tons. As a consequence you have much more grip than they were meant to have and more dirty air.

If there is an absolute limit of downforce teams cannot focus on more downforce, they will focus on getting that downforce with the least drag. It would improve the fuel efficiency massively and bring more passing.

it was said multiple times before that the DDD doesnt increase the dirty air.

A strange argument. Do you say that repeating a false statement makes it true?

One reason for the strange looking rear wings was the desire to separate the upwash from the diffuser and the rear wing. A block of relatively clean air with horizontal vector passing between the diffusor and the rear wing was supposed to achieve that. Towards that purpose the diffusors were kept very shallow and the upward angle much restricted.

The DDDs negated that strategy and prevented the desired effect of the single high rear wing. The wake structure in the center of the car has more vertical components in many places than it was meant to have. It is clearly detrimental to the following car's downforce on the front wing.

Please make some technical points. Arguing that the other lemmings know their way will not keep you from making a fatal mistake.

[Pup]

My admittedly uneducated understanding of all diffusers is that since they are relatively weak compared to the rear wing, they will only reinforce the upwash created by the wing. Someone more educated than I is welcome to tell me whether I'm being dumb about that or not.

Regardless, WB, if I understand you correctly, you are saying that the theory behind the current aero regs is that there should be two distinct sets of vortices trailing behind the cars - one above the other. The idea being that the front wing of the trailing car would only be affected by the lower vortex at close range. Or is it that the lower vortices are rotating opposite the upper ones, thereby actually creating a small downwash over the front wing of the trailing car?

That's an interesting idea, which I hadn't heard before. It does make some sense, though its theory depends on my being dead wrong about the relative strengths of the wing and diffuser. If it works, I'm curious as to how far behind the car until those vortices either collide or collapse and create all sorts of unintended trouble. I assume this has been discussed elsewhere on the forum at length?

---

On a completely different note, I've always wondered what the affect would be of eliminating the front and rear wings altogether, in favor of one, centrally placed wing just behind the cockpit. Pininfarina's Sigma concept is probably the most modern example of this. After all, if the aero portion of the problem is primarily with the front wing, why not just eliminate it for both cars?

[wesley123]

A strange argument. Do you say that repeating a false statement makes it true?

One reason for the strange looking rear wings was the desire to separate the upwash from the diffuser and the rear wing. A block of relatively clean air with horizontal vector passing between the diffusor and the rear wing was supposed to achieve that. Towards that purpose the diffusors were kept very shallow and the upward angle much restricted.

The DDDs negated that strategy and prevented the desired effect of the single high rear wing. The wake structure in the center of the car has more vertical components in many places than it was meant to have. It is clearly detrimental to the following car's downforce on the front wing.

Please make some technical points. Arguing that the other lemmings know their way will not keep you from making a fatal mistake.

From Scarbs:

Facts (from OWG or Tech Director quotes)
* A wider front wing with more load on its outer tip is less sensitive to wake
* A narrower taller rear wing create a less disruptive wake, create less downforce and still create plenty of drag to reduce straight-line speed.
* Diffusers are less sensitive to running in wake, they create downforce centred between the axles and if set at a low expansion ratio are not contributing to wake.
* The diffuser was set back in the 2009 rules to balance the rear downforce lost when running in wake

Also the bigger gap between reduces rear wing influence. All the second deck does is creating lower pressure and more diffuser flow so the car generates more downforce, it doesnt increase wake.

[PlatinumZealot]

I say it's the tracks. Heck, I've saying it for years now.

Have you ever seen an IRL/CART/Champcar race? There is plenty of overtaking and no problems with downforce.

So, for every design there is a right track. If you have 2 tons of downforce, forget about 200 m radius curves: you cannot race in that kind of circuit.

I agree 100%....

They need to design the corners for overtaking technique instead of "fastest lap time" technique. Maybe make the turns so that two or three cars can go through it fast, simultaneously and still get a decent lap time. It might make the track very easy to master (an extreme example a NASCAR track) so qualifying times will be very close but come race time when 28 cars are in the mix it will be continuous battling for the whole race.

Simply, fast cars need fast tracks: fast straights and fast corners, not fast straights and slow corners. I don't know if anybody here ever played "arcade" video games like F-zero or Wipeout.. but those are the kind of tracks that would fit F1 perfectly.. Mostly wide sweeping turns and bankings (too dangerous?) but at the same time there is a slight injection of tight twisty turns for balance. For this type of track though KERS or even turbos might be necessary to make passing on the straights more frequent.