Toyota withdraws from Formula One

[Giblet]

Toyota already burnt a few years following their corporate mantra, which was unsuited to a racing team, and they acknowledged that finally, and started to run it like a race team, not a car company running a race team.

Could you expand on that please? I'm curious as to how the famed Toyota management methods applied (or not) to F1.

ps I'm hoping for discussion of management models and methodologies, not accusations of "blind idiots"

For info;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Toyota_Way

Thanks, I hate having to troll for news. Toyota have said it, and it has been in the news on F1 sites.

Look through the names and avatars on the site. I don't see one Toyota "fan". Says something about their all business corporate image.

The Toyota Way is also known as Kaizen. Sometimes great philosophies only have one place. Same reason we don't use military protocol to run a school.

Why would you even tread near calling me a blind idiot?? Have some class, and maybe YOU should research before challenging, instead of asking us "blind idiots" to do it for you.

Sheesh.

[ISLAMATRON]

Hopefully he was reffering to my post in which I rate that idiot John Howwett lower than a blind chimpanzee and not to you.

[axle]

Thanks, I hate having to troll for news. Toyota have said it, and it has been in the news on F1 sites.

Look through the names and avatars on the site. I don't see one Toyota "fan". Says something about their all business corporate image.

The Toyota Way is also known as Kaizen. Sometimes great philosophies only have one place. Same reason we don't use military protocol to run a school.

Why would you even tread near calling me a blind idiot?? Have some class, and maybe YOU should research before challenging, instead of asking us "blind idiots" to do it for you.

Sheesh.

I think you've miss understood Richard's intentions.
He was asking why it failed and was hoping for a real understanding and not just "durrrr cause they were rubbish" answer. He was intimating that he is guenuinely interested to hear the "real" answer.

Personally I think it's hard to clinically explain why Kaizen failed to get the results it sought in F1. My best guess is that goal posts move in F1 much faster than they do in "normal" business this makes it difficult to apply the fundementals of Continuous Improvement. I also believe that racing relies on flair/creativity/spark of genius/x-factor... and that's a very hard thing to quantify/put structure around.

[ESPImperium]

From what ive been reading at F1 Fanatic (http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/) there could be yet more bad news, Renault have a board meeting today as well about its F1 team.

[Giblet]

If that is the case I apologize, it seemed quite directed although considering
I mentioned the topic. You are usually level headed richard so I should likely not have taken your post with vinegar.

I think the reason is simple. Kaizen is a system for controlling a mob. A giant mob that you throw metal at, and cars spit out the back. Forcing everyone to use a system forces a common baseline that the company can expect of the employees. You are assuming a generalization first of talents and skills, and allowing individuals to rise through work and innovation. This also creates s sub current of competition, which can be counter productive in a racing team, where each and every talent skill is documented and managed in a far more specific way.

In Toyota corporate, if Joe Broom has a genius idea for a Camry cup holder, he can go through a series of channels and escalations. I mean it's a cup holder, nobody goes to school to specialize in the intricacies of them. The odds of that idea coming from Joe Broom are as good as anyone.

If Joe has an idea for a wing endplate, odds are good that 99 out of 100 times, the design guys will waste their time just checking it out, rendering Kaizen an improper system for a race team IMO.

[Giblet]

I just made this



They have not made any changes to their site yet.

[countersteer]

I'm open to being corrected, but I don't think Sauber is automatic if Toyota pulls out. If I remember correctly, Toyota signed the new Concorde agreement and were guaranteed a spot on the grid based on that. Would not this guaranteed spot be sold as part of the team? Prodrive for example? Isn't this what happened with the sale Jaguar to Red Bull?

BMW-Sauber lost their spot and went to the back of the line when they didn't sign the new agreement. I bet they are kicking themselves for that one...

Just my $0.02...

Sauber have been granted the 14 slot officially. They are oficially nominated by the FIA as reserve team in case a team pulls out. It is automatic.

I understand what you're saying. But, "pulling out" as an announcement of company direction and "pulling out" of the Concorde agreement are two separate things. I think they are bound by the terms of the Concorde agreement to be on the grid under whatever name/ownership. I'm sure the Concorde agreement has specific clauses (and most likely huge penalties) for withdrawal which have not yet been activated. It will all come clear in the coming weeks. I forsee Sauber "buying" the slot (possibly for a nominal sum) from Toyota - or - Toyota being sold as a functioning entity (not likely) to another owner and maintaining their spot on the grid. I know I'm quibbling on legal issues but I think this key point will have a big impact on how all this shakes out. Thanks for the response...

[PlatinumZealot]

I wonder if Kimi signed, Toyota would continue?

[Richard]

If that is the case I apologize.

No worries - I was directly quoting Islamatron's post.

We're having the 7 wastes (muda) approach implemented at work, and also the pull/push demand for technology development. This is leading to 2 week development sprints rather than doing a project from start to end over 2 years. It all seems perfect for a racing team, with agile responses, ownership of problems, and joining together in small units not a lone individual.

In my experience, the techniques work very well in a small agile team. The wiki page has a handy summary at the end that seems perfect for F1:

“genchi genbutsu,” (solving problems at the source instead of behind desks), and the “kaizen mind,” (an unending sense of crisis behind the company’s constant drive to improve)

Maybe you've experienced over emphasis of the slow aspect of nemawashi - "Make decisions slowly by consensus, thoroughly considering all options; implement decisions rapidly".

Has anyone read anything about how this management style played out at Toyota F1?

[autogyro]

If that is the case I apologize.

No worries - I was directly quoting Islamatron's post.

We're having the 7 wastes (muda) approach implemented at work, and also the pull/push demand for technology development. This is leading to 2 week development sprints rather than doing a project from start to end over 2 years. It all seems perfect for a racing team, with agile responses, ownership of problems, and joining together in small units not a lone individual.

In my experience, the techniques work very well in a small agile team. The wiki page has a handy summary at the end that seems perfect for F1:

“genchi genbutsu,” (solving problems at the source instead of behind desks), and the “kaizen mind,” (an unending sense of crisis behind the company’s constant drive to improve)

Maybe you've experienced over emphasis of the slow aspect of nemawashi - "Make decisions slowly by consensus, thoroughly considering all options; implement decisions rapidly".

Has anyone read anything about how this management style played out at Toyota F1?

It made for some brilliant flower arrangements.

[lebesset]

some time ago in these columns I said that toyota had to bite the bullet and either

sign a top driver and pay the price
or
shut down at seasons end


am glad to see they saw sense at last , although would rather have seen them take the other course ; to be fair no other large vehicle manufacturer has been a success ; mercedes have a share in McL but basically let them run the team , renault own a team but if you notice they basically just do the engines and the team is really still english ; so ford , bmw, toyota , honda all gone

frankly I think what someone said previously is correct ; the mentality to run a F1 team is not the same as that required to run a big automotive company

[flynfrog]

the budget cap would have made toyota win a race in the last 5 years?

Nope, but it would have stopped them from wasting BILLIONS in what was a lost cause. If their Budget was $50mil rather than the hundreds of Million they spent year on year I doubt they would be as concerned.

It was there money who cares what they do with it. The end result would have been the same.

[autogyro]

the budget cap would have made toyota win a race in the last 5 years?

Nope, but it would have stopped them from wasting BILLIONS in what was a lost cause. If their Budget was $50mil rather than the hundreds of Million they spent year on year I doubt they would be as concerned.

It was there money who cares what they do with it. The end result would have been the same.

The money comes from customers who buy road car and the trillions in tax payer bail outs paid to keep these car companies operating.
Anyone who is critical of the stupid way that international industry is run by coke heads in brasses ripping us all off should be concerned.

[Raptor22]

Yeah well I been saying they quitting for months and here it is.

Anyone who supports fota NEEDS TO REEXAMINE FOTA's values. FOTA is basically Ferrari's Opportunity for Total Annihilation. Ferrari have killed the sport through that Montezemolo character. Formual 1 is dying slowly.
It's lost focus,
It's become artificial

everyone is now fighting the deadwood for sponsors. Its pathetic really. With Toyota gone, there will be a flurry of activity to snap up their sponsors like Denso, PAnasonic etc..

Quite frankly, I'm supportive o teams like Red Bull, Force India and the new entrants. William's should retire, his blocking Sauber's re-entrance is pathetic. He should go home and watch the telly.

Long live the Kit car F1 teams

[timbo]

And when have they not had guaranteed income? The concorde agreement guarntees the teams a certain percentage since the FISA/FOCA wars... the teams could have got more money easily from Bernie had Ferrari not sold out the GPMA. And really the FOM money the teams have been recieving from BE is nothing compared to what they have been spending the last 10 years or so.

This would be not enough even without cap. Especially with that proposed figures that would cause manufactures pay money for redundancy compensation.

If you were paying attention you would have realized that it was the teams who signed the lastest concorde agreement and not the manufacters, so if the Manufacterer parent company wanted to leave the sport all they had to do was merely sell the team, many of us mentioned this the first moments after any details of the newest concorde were released.

Apparently Toyota doesn't sell its team they simply close it and call it a day.