Toyota withdraws from Formula One

[CHT]

I think the 2 biggest turn off by car manufacturers will be

a)The restriction on engine development. This is just as good as telling an athlete you can change wear all sort of running gears but you are not allow to do any cardiovascular exercise

b) Bernie's greed for $$ which make F1 expensive to watch and participate.

[Richard]

So please leave the FIA/FOTA/Max/Bernie fanboy ying yang out of this. In the words of Bill Clinton - "Its the economy stupid".

Well there is an important connection between the manufacturer pull out and the FIA plan to restrict F1 teams basically to the resources that can be paid out of the FOM money.

<snip>

Good points well made without any fanboy ying yang (that's a general point, I'm not singling you out!). Now we can have a discussion.

I think the manufacturers would have pulled out even if F1 cost half what it does now. In hindsight, a budget cap would have suited them now they are strapped for cash.

In value for money terms, a mix up of the regs might have opened up the prospect for more innnovation, but in turn allowed the small boys to spring a surprise (like a DDD).

In the case of Toyota, they spent big and got fewer rewards than many mid level teams. So did BMW and Honda. I wonder if they would have stayed a bit longer if they had spent mid team budgets and got mid team reward?

I think these companies are used to micro management of every influencing factor, but in sport you have to take the rough with the smooth. The cash crunch gave them the excuse to cut and run.

[myurr]

For me the problem is not the cash - it's that F1 is not providing a reason for the teams to justify their participation. As it is F1 is all about marketing and brand awareness. Brilliant in times of bounty, but the marketing budgets are usually the first to be cut in a downturn. And how much prestige do teams like Toyota really get from their participation, where all we ever hear about is the huge amount they spend without getting results?

The reality is that F1 has been positioned and managed in such a way as to give the manufacturers little reason to stick around. It could even be argued that this has been deliberate - Max has been saying for a number of years now that the manufacturers couldn't be relied upon to stick around, and constantly adjusted the rules to make F1 more friendly for independents and less friendly for manufacturers. Some will say this was fabulous prediction on his part, but to me it's more about the remedy causing the original prediction to come true.

F1 needs to come up with a more attractive proposition, rather than continue down the path to becoming a spec series. My ideal solution would be to massively free up the rules, give teams a limited amount of fuel that has to last the race, standard tyres so as to manage and limit mechanical grip, and then say go forth and innovate. Some could go for a super low drag concept, with little drag but lots of power and straight line speed. Others may go high downforce but therefore lots of drag, and have to limit the engine power to make the fuel last. We could see unrestricted KERS/HERS, etc. Yes budgets would most likely balloon, but the teams would have the opportunity to invent, and some of that tech would be road relevant, and therefore their tech and expertise becomes a saleable commodity, even the smaller entrants would by necessity amass technical expertise that they would be able to resell to others.

I'm sure others will have other solutions, but the one thing F1 cannot escape is that people need a reason to go racing and rushing headlong into becoming a spec series will most likely take away the majority of the reasons.

[compo]

[outer_bongolia]

For me the problem is not the cash - it's that F1 is not providing a reason for the teams to justify their participation. As it is F1 is all about marketing and brand awareness. Brilliant in times of bounty, but the marketing budgets are usually the first to be cut in a downturn. And how much prestige do teams like Toyota really get from their participation, where all we ever hear about is the huge amount they spend without getting results?

The reality is that F1 has been positioned and managed in such a way as to give the manufacturers little reason to stick around. It could even be argued that this has been deliberate - Max has been saying for a number of years now that the manufacturers couldn't be relied upon to stick around, and constantly adjusted the rules to make F1 more friendly for independents and less friendly for manufacturers. Some will say this was fabulous prediction on his part, but to me it's more about the remedy causing the original prediction to come true.

F1 needs to come up with a more attractive proposition, rather than continue down the path to becoming a spec series. My ideal solution would be to massively free up the rules, give teams a limited amount of fuel that has to last the race, standard tyres so as to manage and limit mechanical grip, and then say go forth and innovate. Some could go for a super low drag concept, with little drag but lots of power and straight line speed. Others may go high downforce but therefore lots of drag, and have to limit the engine power to make the fuel last. We could see unrestricted KERS/HERS, etc. Yes budgets would most likely balloon, but the teams would have the opportunity to invent, and some of that tech would be road relevant, and therefore their tech and expertise becomes a saleable commodity, even the smaller entrants would by necessity amass technical expertise that they would be able to resell to others.

I'm sure others will have other solutions, but the one thing F1 cannot escape is that people need a reason to go racing and rushing headlong into becoming a spec series will most likely take away the majority of the reasons.

Hear. Hear...

[outer_bongolia]

Actually one worrisome thing is the number of engine producers reduced drastically. We only have Merc, Ferrari, Cosworth, and Renault (hopefully) after BMW, Honda, and Toyota departed. I sometimes wonder how it would be if these guys chose to just engine suppliers.

One thing, though. Producing cars that consume 4.5 miles per gallon instead of 45 miles per gallon might not be the best way to show off as a green car company (a field that both Toyota and Honda are heavily fighting on). I definitely agree with the previous posts about killing of KERS was another small reasons for the departure of Toyota.

[tarzoon]

Max has been saying for a number of years now that the manufacturers couldn't be relied upon to stick around, and constantly adjusted the rules to make F1 more friendly for independents and less friendly for manufacturers. Some will say this was fabulous prediction on his part, but to me it's more about the remedy causing the original prediction to come true.

Was this a prediction or a a consequence of his spec series?

I don't see F1 as being profitable to almost anyone. Pirelli just answered the question regarding its return to F1 by saying it's not in their plans since the technology is not applicable to road cars. Others, such as KERS, could have been a great investment for road car implementation in a near future, but FOTA is ruling it out from next season. Comparing to Le Mans, those crazy batmobiles are using loads of new technologies that actually get into road-version cars. Even Toyota had a road legal version of his car, if I'm not mistaken. Comparing it to the greatest innovation we've seen this year - the DDD - how can this be of any use in my car, my confort or my safety?

So what am I trying to say here?

Maybe the future should come from using more everyday stuff. Try to get a compromise with garagistes and manufacturers on what to develop and assess its commercial feasibility. Not that every little detail will get into road cars, but hopefully a good part of it will. I'm actually picturing those marketing guys using this as proper advertisement, instead of the typical picture with a good angle and a crappy message.

This could give a purpose to R&D and makes F1 more attractive.

[pgj]

Bernie is always hailed as a marketing genius. I have my doubts about that. He is closer to an opportunist who lucked into a cash cow at knock-down price. He has been flogging the same old dead horse ever since. Bernie never hears the sound of F1 engines. He hears the sound of cash registers ringing and as long as they are ringing he believes that there is nothing wrong with the product he is selling.

F1 is a prototype series and teams must be given scope to innovate. However, examples of waste where one team needed a new component and launched eight independent development projects before selecting the optimal one must be stamped out. Part of the attraction of F1 is that the little guy could always go up against the big guy if he could do a better job than the big guy.

F1 needs manufacturers. It does not need manufacturers as owners though. Once a manufacturer becomes an owner there is an open door from the corporate board room directly into the TP's office.

[edit spelling]

[autogyro]

My prediction for the future of road cars is electric vehicles through hybrid's.
If F1 does not folloew this direction it will be finished very soon.

[RH1300S]

My prediction for the future of road cars is electric vehicles through hybrid's.
If F1 does not folloew this direction it will be finished very soon.

Maybe not very soon, but who says your 'soon' is the same as mine

In the longish term I suspect you are right. I also suspect that F1 will be smart enough to follow the market into these new technologies. It's a shame that it won't lead, but in truth it will probably follow the money, which in turn follows the market. Once it gets there it will push these technologies along very fast and probably market itself as a leader

[tarzoon]

I also suspect that F1 will be smart enough to follow the market into these new technologies. It's a shame that it won't lead, but in truth it will probably follow the money, which in turn follows the market. Once it gets there it will push these technologies along very fast and probably market itself as a leader

If F1 doesn't lead, what's its purpose?

Efficiency and alternative fuels may be the future. Still, KERS is dying too fast, fuel saving is dubious (despite refueling ban), and alternative fuels are a mirage.

[CMSMJ1]

My prediction for the future of road cars is electric vehicles through hybrid's.
If F1 does not folloew this direction it will be finished very soon.

If F1 follows then it is dead. Let road cars use electric and prototypes, trucks and trains use diesel.

F1 is nothing to do with car makers, their whims or follies. it is about engineering a car to go as fast as you can regardless of the costs.

If you overspend..you fail as a company and so you fail in F1.

it is a balance...right now the balance is coming back towards the garagistes.

[axle]

My prediction for the future of road cars is electric vehicles through hybrid's.
If F1 does not folloew this direction it will be finished very soon.

If F1 follows then it is dead. Let road cars use electric and prototypes, trucks and trains use diesel.

F1 is nothing to do with car makers, their whims or follies. it is about engineering a car to go as fast as you can regardless of the costs.

If you overspend..you fail as a company and so you fail in F1.

it is a balance...right now the balance is coming back towards the garagistes.

Correct me if I'm wrong here but I don't recall F1 inventing the Internal Combustion Engine...

Going Hybrid/electric etc is a massive swing in direction...they cannot be expected to pioneer it without major financial backing. F1 tends to polish ideas, reduce them in size and weight etc...it is not responsible for developing wholly new technologies.

[CMSMJ1]

Don't know if that is posted at me axle?

My point being that F1 does ont need manufacturers to use it for their ideas and testing.

F1 needs people to make fast chassis and put the fastest engine in them.

[RH1300S]

If F1 doesn't lead, what's its purpose?

To race????