What was the first F1 car with paddle shifting?

[autogyro]

Ergonomics are ergonomics, the trick is to get the rider or driver to adapt to a better and faster methods of operation.
There should be no technical reasons against if the design meets the vehicle's needs.
Not an easy task to convince the driver/rider as I have found both on bikes and cars.
Some of them seem to be too thick and others too macho to even try to adapt to better control systems. Still in engineering terms the driver is simply just another changeable part.
Don't tell Norton your opinion of Japanese motor cycles, there bikes were always much better, faster and easier to ride.
Shame the Japanese managed to get them out of racing.
The Japanese certainly love trees!

[RH1300S]

Ergonomics are ergonomics, the trick is to get the rider or driver to adapt to a better and faster methods of operation.
There should be no technical reasons against if the design meets the vehicle's needs.

I agree with that completely - I don't necessarily agree with the conclusions you have drawn, but would be open to being proved wrong.

However, if (for example) you had said let's try a single brake lever controlling both brakes and regulated by clever electronics (just like Honda have done), put the buttons on the left bar (like the indicator switch for example). Perhaps a left hand operated clutch and I'd begin to agree. So, we agree in the principle and argue out the interpretation........... And TBH - my idea of what might work could be utter tosh when tried in real life.

I have a job agreeing with the rest of your post. I can find merit and fault in most bikes and don't see the need to tarnish one type because of where it comes from.

Yes, a Norton is very nice to ride - and quite quick despite it's lack of power. But to be honest compared to a modern sports bike the reason it works well is lack of power, which allows skinny tyres, which are much easier to turn than the big fat rear tyres we have these days. One fault I would aim at the Japs is using over-wide rear tyres that dominate the bike - I changed mine from a 190/50 to a 180/55 and it transformed the handling - but I digress. Nonetheless, I would argue that the Japs have got a pretty good handle on what makes a bike work these days - we shouldn't confuse 2009 with 1979 ('69 or '89 even).


One little thought to leave with - if you want supreme handling and speed around a race track way above it's engine power try a Suzuki RGV250 (or the Aprillia RS250). This thought kind of proves that the Japanese pursuit of power ruined something more subtle (something the guys at Norton probably understood) and also shows that the Japs can do it when they need to....everyone's a winner.

[autogyro]

I was talking about the Norton Rotary and the development work that would have resulted in a no clutch electronically shifted bike years ago.
I used one of the engines in a light aircraft and there was scope for development in that area also. Problem was the prop reduction gearbox.
I agree completely that power alone has no benefit in high performance bikes, it is all about getting the power down and brakes.
The rotary is ideal for use with electronically shifted gearboxes. The inertia in the moving parts can be used to smooth things out and rpm changes are far easier to achieve.

[RH1300S]

Interesting - but we had better not hi-jack this thread any more.....

I'd forgotten the rotary (oops) - now your comments make more sense. Awesome device.

[autogyro]

Interesting - but we had better not hi-jack this thread any more.....

I'd forgotten the rotary (oops) - now your comments make more sense. Awesome device.

Back to the thread.
So paddle shifters are there to make the gearchange more jerky, so as to upset traction and reduce handling right?

[xxChrisxx]

Back to the thread.
So paddle shifters are there to make the gearchange more jerky, so as to upset traction and reduce handling right?

No need at all for paddle shift on road cars, buttons do the job fine, on full auto, or semi auto, no matter what the geartrain.
The paddles are just a marketing gimmick for the macho.

I don't understand this statement at all, how is a paddle any different to a button in its ultimate operation?

Also care to eloborate on just why a paddle shift would make a gear change jerky?

[Ciro Pabón]

Back to the thread...

Yeah, sure. The thread is about the first car with paddle shifting, just in case.

[autogyro]

Sorry Ciro.
I cannot respond in depth Chris without promoting the benefits of a true electronic shift overlap, which is an actual seamless shift and not a pretend one as in current use.
Pretend seamless always includes a variation in torque transfer, like any ordinary shift. Paddles are less precise than buttons, which accentuates the issue.
It is all reliant on driver training with such tiny differences.
They all add up in a lap however.
If I remember the first paddle shift levers were on the Ferrari that Mansel drove.
This is if we are talking solely about F1 cars and only gearshift paddles, as opposed to other types of lever and clutch actuators.

[xxChrisxx]

Sorry Ciro.
I cannot respond in depth Chris without promoting the benefits of a true electronic shift overlap, which is an actual seamless shift and not a pretend one as in current use.
Pretend seamless always includes a variation in torque transfer, like any ordinary shift. Paddles are less precise than buttons, which accentuates the issue.
It is all reliant on driver training with such tiny differences.
They all add up in a lap however.
If I remember the first paddle shift levers were on the Ferrari that Mansel drove.
This is if we are talking solely about F1 cars and only gearshift paddles, as opposed to other types of lever and clutch actuators.

You said buttons > paddles.

It has nothing to do with what the gearbox does at all. All they do is a actuate a switch or potentiometer, which both buttons and paddles do equally well. Telling the electronics to 'change NOWWW'. The type of gearbox it's connected to is irrelevent.

Paddles are more ergonomic than buttons as they can be made to be huge without getting in the way. You could, if you were so inclined, have a moisture sensitive pad that you need to lick to change gear. Not very practical, but the electric signal it creates does exactly the same job.

You could also if you wanted have it connected to a gear lever like you get on arcade games. Knock up to change up, knock down to change down. It's all the same.


You are commenting on two things that are entirely unrelated.

[bazanaius]

I cannot for the life of me understand why paddles would be less precise than buttons?

[RH1300S]

Can you explain the difference Autogyro? I am curious.

If buttons are better perhaps that's an ergonomic thing, but if that is the case then surely driver preference would take precedent.

I assume that flicking a paddle or pressing a button activates a switch - once activated the signal heading off the the control box no longer cares what told it to go.

In that case the only reason there can be a greater benefit between one system or the other (or even licking a pad) will be dependent on everything else in the installation. Steering wheel or tiller or joystick or handlebars and what else is attached that needs attention. In the case of an F1 wheel, with so many other controls having a paddle of some sort seems to make a lot of sense as it is very hard to confuse it's function with other buttons. The driver will learn pretty quickly when to flick a paddle or press a button to change at the right time - after all they tend to be sitting in the car because they have good motor skills.

[autogyro]

Can you explain the difference Autogyro? I am curious.

If buttons are better perhaps that's an ergonomic thing, but if that is the case then surely driver preference would take precedent.

I assume that flicking a paddle or pressing a button activates a switch - once activated the signal heading off the the control box no longer cares what told it to go.

In that case the only reason there can be a greater benefit between one system or the other (or even licking a pad) will be dependent on everything else in the installation. Steering wheel or tiller or joystick or handlebars and what else is attached that needs attention. In the case of an F1 wheel, with so many other controls having a paddle of some sort seems to make a lot of sense as it is very hard to confuse it's function with other buttons. The driver will learn pretty quickly when to flick a paddle or press a button to change at the right time - after all they tend to be sitting in the car because they have good motor skills.

I can only suggest that you ask any kid playing a computer driving game, if he would like to change the gearshift button on the hand controller for an awkward 'paddle'?
It most certainly does make a big difference what the geartrain is. All layshaft gearboxes (including so called seamless) have a distinct gap in torque transfer with a degree of jolt. Even in F1 this, coupled to the way the driver applies power at the time easily results in a loss off traction and often a spin. A true seamless geartrain with torque transfer during the shift does not do this.

[xxChrisxx]

I can only suggest that you ask any kid playing a computer driving game, if he would like to change the gearshift button on the hand controller for an awkward 'paddle'?
It most certainly does make a big difference what the geartrain is. All layshaft gearboxes (including so called seamless) have a distinct gap in torque transfer with a degree of jolt. Even in F1 this, coupled to the way the driver applies power at the time easily results in a loss off traction and often a spin. A true seamless geartrain with torque transfer during the shift does not do this.

Last time I checked real cars aren't driven with a control pad. (Nor are computer cars if you are serious enough of a gamer to buy a wheel for it)

As someone who is a fairly active gamer. I prefer a Paddle every time, they are bigger and can be flicked with any forefinger. Buttons can be very awkward to press depending on location, say right behind the steeing wheel, you need to flex your hand more to actuate the button which can give horrible handache after a long session.

On a steering wheel, paddles = comfortable to use with fingers. Buttons with figners = handache. However I find thumb buttons on steering wheels to be comfortable, but this is totally impractical on an F1 steering wheel that has more buttons and knobs than my microwave.

You are talking about how 'seamless a gearbox is'. Explain WHY you think the PADDLE makes any difference over a BUTTON to a gearcahnge (apart from ergonomics). Which in the above you haven't.

[bazanaius]

Xbox360, playstation and Wii controllers are very different in shape to a steering wheel, and operated in a very different way (for a start you have to control the vehicle's acceleration and braking from the same device). When holding a steering wheel (particularly F1 wheels which aren't particularly round), I think it could be a close call between a thumb button and a paddle. Currently, most teams have both - I believe that paddles are used for gears (and admittedly a few other engine related bits) for the same reason that RH stated - it's hard to confuse with other things close by. The buttons can then be used for other things. I'd imagine if the driver was really keen on buttons they would get them (anything to make the car quicker), as the signal sent to the ECU is the same. They are not analogue (at which point paddles are better than buttons anyway, due to the longer travel and the 'grip' motion being easier to control than the 'poke').

[Sawtooth-spike]

For Gaming, Paddles Every time. They are in an easy place to access, i dont need to move my hand at all to reach them. I have tried using the buttons and i tended to over kill the changes but ether going up or down to far. Not that i am saying this is anything like real life!

Has anybody noticed though on road cars, Sometime the paddles are stationary (which would annoy me) and sometime they rotate with the wheel (which i like). If the paddles stayed still i would go with buttons.

I Just about remember this being brought in with the ferrari, The next questions is who was the last to to adopt it!