Button signs for Mclaren

[Conceptual]

Unless Jenson's contract states clear co#1 status, and identical equipment.

If he didn't get that, then I would have to say that he is a borderline retard.

[bidong]

Ferrari will suck next year. Massa got KOed in Hungary while Alonso has never smelled the sweet fragrance of consistent victories for a really long time. So expect them to make a charge on the second half of the season as much as McLaren did this year. Surely the Fisichiella-Badoer-Raikonnen developed car will shock the Massa-Alonso pairing.

dont understand what u mean Fisichiella-Badoer-Raikonnen developed car....

ferrai stopped development of f60 long time ago........so none of the mentioned driver have any contribution in f61 project (luca might have some).

i particularly believe that massa isnt that talent to drive for a team like ferrari or mcca...but anyway....its happening.

but certainly f61 will be developed around alonso...no matter it suits massa or not.

The Ferrari F61 (2010 challenger) is basically the 2009 car with massive aero improvement in line with their drivers input. Most of the input came from 'The Iceman' for he drove the car from first race to last race. Next, the minimal inputs of Badoer and Fisi. Basically, what Massa left as the F60 is completely different, since Kimi and the crew have been toying with the car to extract optimum performance. So when Massa sits on the F61, he will not probably know where they left off. And the same way with Alonso, he has an ultra different driving style to Kimi, Luca, and Fisi. He's more of a Hamilton/Kubica kinda a guy; sharp turn in with a hint of oversteer. So their base car will be more familiar for Kimi and the Second Half Crew (LB and GF.) It's gonna be a wild one next year in Ferrari. (these are all opinions)

[Conceptual]

Ferrari will suck next year. Massa got KOed in Hungary while Alonso has never smelled the sweet fragrance of consistent victories for a really long time. So expect them to make a charge on the second half of the season as much as McLaren did this year. Surely the Fisichiella-Badoer-Raikonnen developed car will shock the Massa-Alonso pairing.

dont understand what u mean Fisichiella-Badoer-Raikonnen developed car....

ferrai stopped development of f60 long time ago........so none of the mentioned driver have any contribution in f61 project (luca might have some).

i particularly believe that massa isnt that talent to drive for a team like ferrari or mcca...but anyway....its happening.

but certainly f61 will be developed around alonso...no matter it suits massa or not.

The Ferrari F61 (2010 challenger) is basically the 2009 car with massive aero improvement in line with their drivers input. Most of the input came from 'The Iceman' for he drove the car from first race to last race. Next, the minimal inputs of Badoer and Fisi. Basically, what Massa left as the F60 is completely different, since Kimi and the crew have been toying with the car to extract optimum performance. So when Massa sits on the F61, he will not probably know where they left off. And the same way with Alonso, he has an ultra different driving style to Kimi, Luca, and Fisi. He's more of a Hamilton/Kubica kinda a guy; sharp turn in with a hint of oversteer. So their base car will be more familiar for Kimi and the Second Half Crew (LB and GF.) It's gonna be a wild one next year in Ferrari. (these are all opinions)

So, you have proof of this, or is this more opinion being passed off as fact?

What happened to the "technical" aspect of F1Technical.net?

[lebesset]

if button had been offered a half decent contract half way through the season he would have jumped at staying at brawnGP

but I would guess that brawn/mercedes were already talking about a takeover , and one mercedes condition would be to leave the driver position open so as to see what german could be inserted ; if you were ross/fry what would you do ? jenson is a nice guy , he will stick with us if we want him , so piss him about for a while , he will be there , where else would he go?

jenson must have realised that long term mercedes GP is a no no for him ; for nick fry to speak of disloyal is just a joke , the way brawn gp acted doesn't deserve loyalty , they looked after number one ...they had ample time to do a deal . stringing it out until there was nowhere else for jenson to go got the reaction it deserved , jenson took a big hit paywise last year , wonder if they offered him a share of the profit to compensate ...I don't think that needs answering , do you ?

[ISLAMATRON]

So what if he took a paycut last year? He was way overpayed for the 3 years before that... and hundreds at the team took a job cut last year, earning millions to play race car driver is more than enough. You dont get what you deserve you get what you negotiate, and every thing is renegotiable. If JB had carried his first half dominence thru the whole season he would have got a fat Iron clad offer from BGP or Merc GP which would have quickly been matched by McLaren(if they couldnt get Kimi for cheaper).

From the number I've seen reported, BGP offered him more than even what I think he was worth but he decided to go for the McLaren drive. But how sure are any of us by what BGP offered him, or even what he ended up getting at McLaren?... not very

[tarzoon]

You dont get what you deserve you get what you negotiate, and every thing is renegotiable.

(...)

BGP offered him more than even what I think he was worth

is it how much he's worth as a driver or as negotiator?

seems like a contradiction

[bidong]

Conceptual,

sorry to hit ur meticulous bone.

but to my defense i said...


(these are all opinions)


This is not factual. But isn't a Formula One car developed in the middle of the season? Example, 2010 car started development during the middle of the 2009 season. And as the 2009 season unfolds, the lessons learned from the 2009 car will be transmitted to the 2010 car. The people who were transmitting the lessons learned from this season are the drivers in tandem with the engineers; Kimi has driven the most races in a Ferrari this season, so definitely he has more inputs (definitely quantifiably more than massa/luca or giancarlo.) All/Some/Most/None of these info will be transferred to the 2010 car.NO ONE KNOWS But it's just logical that at least some info goes to the 2010 car.

So what i'm saying or guessing, if your super meticulous with words passed as facts, is that Alonso and Massa will be having a hard time adjusting to the 2010 car because they don't know where Kimi has brought it/left it. And Kimi won't be with them next year? Dig?

Can this be the last comment about this thing. It's a Button to McLaren forum come on. Thank you.

[kilcoo316]

So, you have proof of this, or is this more opinion being passed off as fact?

What happened to the "technical" aspect of F1Technical.net?

All the 2010 cars will be evolved 2009 cars.



That is a technical comment on what is increasingly becoming a non-technical forum. This place is supposed to be full of people smart enough to know better than the "revolutionary new design" bullshit that is fed to the ignorant masses every year.

[Conceptual]

So, you have proof of this, or is this more opinion being passed off as fact?

What happened to the "technical" aspect of F1Technical.net?

All the 2010 cars will be evolved 2009 cars.



That is a technical comment on what is increasingly becoming a non-technical forum. This place is supposed to be full of people smart enough to know better than the "revolutionary new design" bullshit that is fed to the ignorant masses every year.

Other than the new teams that are starting from scratch, I guess they will all be loosely based around the aero regs, but as has been discussed, with the refueling ban, as well as the rimshield ban, I am guessing that there will be many noticable differences. Especially in the area where they steal the tub mods needed to copy certain aero tricks that they could not get done in 2009 (Ferrari's tub notch).

And, if anyone wants to state opinion, your statement should be prefaced with it, not placed at the end as an afterthought. It is OK in my book to make presumptive speculations, but be up front about it. I think, IMO, any of those are great places to start. It doesn't cause me to personally skip over, because I like the educated guesses on this forum, it is when I read such speculation, and the tone is that of "God inspired knowledge, so ye must accept as fact" posters.

Man, I hate those posts!

[compo]

[

[kilcoo316]

Other than the new teams that are starting from scratch, I guess they will all be loosely based around the aero regs, but as has been discussed, with the refueling ban, as well as the rimshield ban, I am guessing that there will be many noticable differences.

Of course there will be differences!

But they will all be subtle.


Expect to see many RBR design cues around the front end of cars in January. With more creative work under the gearbox.



Not that I am completely convinced that is the way to go... with reduced front tyre sizes and more aggressive DDDs, I would expect generating front end grip without killing the flow over the rest of the car to be more of a challenge for the teams next year.

If I was in a team, I would at least evaluate a more aggressive interpretation of the Renault nose. Very low slung at the front, with the pylons forming a diffuser (as internal pipe diffuser) over the upper surface of the front wing, then sweeping very high up into two splitters the first doubling as a single keel, the upper (horizontal) splitter plate in-line with the lower wishbone pickup points and forming the same snow-plough as was evident on a number of cars this year.

The lower splitter plate would be more conventional.

Especially in the area where they steal the tub mods needed to copy certain aero tricks that they could not get done in 2009 (Ferrari's tub notch).

Those are not revolutionary.

And, if anyone wants to state opinion, your statement should be prefaced with it, not placed at the end as an afterthought. It is OK in my book to make presumptive speculations, but be up front about it. I think, IMO, any of those are great places to start. It doesn't cause me to personally skip over, because I like the educated guesses on this forum, it is when I read such speculation, and the tone is that of "God inspired knowledge, so ye must accept as fact" posters.

You started the silly posting with:

So, you have proof of this, or is this more opinion being passed off as fact?

What happened to the "technical" aspect of F1Technical.net?

Ask any engineer - we don't reinvent the wheel, and we definitely don't start from a clean sheet of paper and not consider what we've done in the past.



About the only mechanical area of significant change will be raising the underside of the gearbox to clear volume for the diffuser. Everything else is more or less 'as you were' with incremental improvements.

[xpensive]

I remember in the early days of true ground-effects, with venturis and all, Arrows tried tilting engine and gearbox up.

In other words the crank was not horizontal, wonder if that trick could be viable for 2010, kilcoo?

[Pandamasque]

Unless Jenson's contract states clear co#1 status, and identical equipment.

If he didn't get that, then I would have to say that he is a borderline retard.

Button's considered to be a very good driver by many, but I've never ever heard anyone praising his career decisions. He got it right once so far. That was last winter.

[Giblet]

I wonder how much Mclaren was thinking that taking Button on would also be a blow to Brawn.

Ron Dennis took great pride when he stole Alonso away from Renault. Flavio even called Ron to ask him to delay the announcement, so he could properly inform the brass and inform sponsors of the impending withdrawal. I am pretty sure you can all guess or remember what he said.

"No."

Mclaren of course didn't sign Button to screw the Brawn's continuity, but I'm sure they were aware that it would. They have to learn all over again with new drivers and their engineers. With limited test time, and now have nobody with seat time in to 2009 car to compare the testing results.

The advantage would be small, but it is Mclaren's advantage now.

[Giblet]

I remember in the early days of true ground-effects, with venturis and all, Arrows tried tilting engine and gearbox up.

In other words the crank was not horizontal, wonder if that trick could be viable for 2010, kilcoo?

Arrows engine titling didn't work out as well as planned. The car had horrible 'porpoising' at speed. The center of gravity was too high for the handling to be worthy of the unobstructed venturis.

As well, the Arrows was not as limited to with the size of the opening. Double or not, the diffuser dimensional limits are the same.

So the question is what is more important, COG or diffuser flow?