Button signs for Mclaren

[segedunum]

All the 2010 cars will be evolved 2009 cars. That is a technical comment on what is increasingly becoming a non-technical forum. This place is supposed to be full of people smart enough to know better than the "revolutionary new design" bullshit that is fed to the ignorant masses every year.

Very true. A lot of idiotic people have this notion that because Ferrari have ditched their 2009 car they will have something revolutionary for 2010 that will possibly sweep Alonso to a championship. They won't. It will be an evolved 2009 car whilst playing serious catch up to Red Bull, Brawn and to a lesser extent McLaren. The competition for the 'grandee' teams are no mugs.

Whilst I can concede that with the changes from 2008 to 2009 there was probably an element of 'revolution' to it owing to the changes in the regulations, no team ignores past experience and development regardless. That is certainly the case regarding 2010. Yes, we'll have no refuelling which will mean certain changes, but, if you have good mechanicals and especially aerodynamics in 2009 then you can carry that good work straight into next year.

[Rob W]

So what if he took a paycut last year? He was way overpayed for the 3 years before that... and hundreds at the team took a job cut last year, earning millions to play race car driver is more than enough.

I agree. He always had the choice to go do NASCAR/Le Mans or whatever else is out there - they didn't force him to sign. I also agree that he was way overpaid for years in an under-performing team (but then technically so was the entire team based on return on investment for the owners).

Then again, by this logic Ralph Schumacher ought to have to drive for free for eternity given the ludicrous money he got paid to basically achieve nothing.

As for earning ... more than enough - I guess it's always relative: Relative to what other drivers get, what being the current WDC is really worth, and what seats/teams have openings. As it happened for Button one of the richest teams in the business had an open seat so it ramped up the stakes dollar signs in his eyes.

I can sort of see Button's point about leaving Brawn though. When a major shareholding changeover happens - based primarily on the outstanding performance and prospects of the circle of top people at the team - you'd think there would be a bit of acceptance that to retain a drive who is off-contract you'd need to meet the market. Maybe Brawn did - or maybe they played it all to look like they wanted to retain him when they actually wanted to ditch him for Rosberg etc. It makes a lot of sense commercially for them in some ways: They wanted to launch the *new* team with a more youthful outlook. Button/Barrichello weren't part of those plans from day one.

[bidong]

MAssa has proved himself, Alonso is the one who has not done jack --- the last 2 years... except help fix a race

=D>

hahahaha!

[lebesset]

seems that button took less money from McL than ross brawn put on the table

but not being german his future there was limited

[Fil]

now rumours are beginning to surface that Jenson agreed to terms with McLaren before the season had even ended..

that would mean he strung Brawn along, negotiating when there was nothing to negotiate.. [-X

[gibells]

now rumours are beginning to surface that Jenson agreed to terms with McLaren before the season had even ended..

that would mean he strung Brawn along, negotiating when there was nothing to negotiate.. [-X

Noooo...that's brilliant. There's nothing like not showing your cards and letting the other guys think they have one over on you. I loved the fact that Brawn were being cool with Jenson making themselves look like the only option he had. I've never known such bollox being sprouted out, even by the Big Man himself that 'Jenson has breached his contract'. Based on that premise, any serious talks with other teams would be in breach of contact. They are beginning to sound like very small, petty people. What do you expect the bloke to do? Wait for his contract to expire before he gets another one? Utter horse manure!

Remember, for all we know Brawn/Merc could be like a 1 hit wonder. For all the resources they had, they are now a smallish team (even with Merc involved), albeit a team in a very good position.

IMHO Jenson has made a very smart, calculated move. McLaren will never be out of the top 3 teams in the sport, and they have a history of enjoying stability with their driver line-up while remaining impeccably neutral on team orders. I should think once he's established himself in the team he'll look to see out his days there.

[segedunum]

I've never known such bollox being sprouted out, even by the Big Man himself that 'Jenson has breached his contract'. Based on that premise, any serious talks with other teams would be in breach of contact.

He was talking about the McLaren factory visit to say "Hello" - an extremely idiotic and unnecessary thing to do by Jenson and his manager - that could well be construed as a breach of contract. It won't be contested though. It just means Mercedes won't be civil. From McLaren's perspective it got them some nice publicity but it just underlined how easily led Button can be with these things and it brought back memories of his totally botched Williams move when he failed to anticipate BMW pulling out.

They are beginning to sound like very small, petty people. What do you expect the bloke to do? Wait for his contract to expire before he gets another one? Utter horse manure!

Button was well aware of the situation at Brawn and was probably well aware that nothing could be sorted until the dust had settled over the Mercedes takeover. However, he and his manager still started jumping up and down over a contract when the future of the team was still uncertain.

Remember, for all we know Brawn/Merc could be like a 1 hit wonder. For all the resources they had, they are now a smallish team (even with Merc involved), albeit a team in a very good position.

I doubt it. They are now a small, efficient operation when other teams like Ferrari and McLaren are having to downsize and they have development continuity. Ferrari and McLaren are under pressure next year.

Additionally, given that McLaren couldn't afford what Mercedes eventually offered for Button, and Raikkonen's manager admitted that McLaren couldn't afford him, it's McLaren who now look like the small team.

IMHO Jenson has made a very smart, calculated move. McLaren will never be out of the top 3 teams in the sport

Given what has happened over the past couple of years there is reason to doubt that. The 'grandee' teams like McLaren and Ferrari have no divine right to be where they are and Red Bull and Brawn Merc will probably still be the strongest teams into next year because of what they can carry over from 2009.

...and they have a history of enjoying stability with their driver line-up while remaining impeccably neutral on team orders.

I should think once he's established himself in the team he'll look to see out his days there.

Just like he saw out his days at Williams.

[Richard]

seems that button took less money from McL than ross brawn put on the table

but not being german his future there was limited

Do you have a reference for that?

From the various media reports, I think the main difference was a 3 year contract from McL versus v 1 year from Brawn.

[gibells]

...

Mate, you verge on the sycophantic. The season is over. He has fulfilled his contract. He has even brought them the top prize, and contributed to the second prize. Him and his manager were getting nowhere with the contract negotiations so looked elsewhere. I don't see what he's done wrong. Haven't you ever been to an interview while you still had a job? I know I have. Even if it is in his contract that he was not allowed to visit other teams, his Brawn contract is over at the end of the year. It's not like there was even any testing he could do.

You're naive in thinking small teams succeed. Brawn's success stemmed from one of the biggest budgets in 2008. Redbull may be independant but they too spent an awful lot redeveloping their racer to take a DDD. Probably more than Ferrari, judging on the amount of changes seen through the year.

A couple of weeks back it emerged that all was not well within Brawn. It was leaked that the designers, engineers, etc. were complaining that they weren't receiving bonuses due to them, and were being poached by other teams. I don't know whether that was true or not, but one thing is for sure, if you don't treat your staff with respect they will walk. Just look at Williams and the success they had in the 90s...and then it was gone. And I do believe it (the success) went with a certain Mr Newey.

But hey, you're entitled to your opinions. So am I. All hail Heirs Fry und Braun.

[Conceptual]

All the 2010 cars will be evolved 2009 cars. That is a technical comment on what is increasingly becoming a non-technical forum. This place is supposed to be full of people smart enough to know better than the "revolutionary new design" bullshit that is fed to the ignorant masses every year.

Very true. A lot of idiotic people have this notion that because Ferrari have ditched their 2009 car they will have something revolutionary for 2010 that will possibly sweep Alonso to a championship. They won't. It will be an evolved 2009 car whilst playing serious catch up to Red Bull, Brawn and to a lesser extent McLaren. The competition for the 'grandee' teams are no mugs.

Whilst I can concede that with the changes from 2008 to 2009 there was probably an element of 'revolution' to it owing to the changes in the regulations, no team ignores past experience and development regardless. That is certainly the case regarding 2010. Yes, we'll have no refuelling which will mean certain changes, but, if you have good mechanicals and especially aerodynamics in 2009 then you can carry that good work straight into next year.

If this is true, why didn't the F60 receive any aero upgrades that were found for the F2010? Isn't that what happens when you evolve a chassis? The tricks that you found for next year get adapted to this years' car? Unless, it is a completely different philosophy, and will not interact in the proper manner...

[CHT]

If Button is smart, he won't be cheapest WDC driving for a team with the biggest budget. Throughout his career, he has made so many blunder in negotiating contract which make him look like a traitor, this one will definitely be the biggest blunder of all. Would big companies engage him for big endorsement like Lewis or Kimi? I really doubt so. I wont be surprise that Citizen is going to terminate his contract for such behavior.

The Mclaren 2010 car is 100% designed to suit Lewis aggressive driving instead of Button silky smooth driving style, hence I do think Lewis is going to make Button look like a rookie in 2010.

Although people are anticipating Mclaren to be fast next year due to the strong performance towards the end of the season. My question is, was the strong performance gain towards the end season due to the fact that they have the best KERS system and others are not running them? And how much of the strong performance was due to the rock solid Merc engine?

[CHT]

All the 2010 cars will be evolved 2009 cars. That is a technical comment on what is increasingly becoming a non-technical forum. This place is supposed to be full of people smart enough to know better than the "revolutionary new design" bullshit that is fed to the ignorant masses every year.

Very true. A lot of idiotic people have this notion that because Ferrari have ditched their 2009 car they will have something revolutionary for 2010 that will possibly sweep Alonso to a championship. They won't. It will be an evolved 2009 car whilst playing serious catch up to Red Bull, Brawn and to a lesser extent McLaren. The competition for the 'grandee' teams are no mugs.

Whilst I can concede that with the changes from 2008 to 2009 there was probably an element of 'revolution' to it owing to the changes in the regulations, no team ignores past experience and development regardless. That is certainly the case regarding 2010. Yes, we'll have no refuelling which will mean certain changes, but, if you have good mechanicals and especially aerodynamics in 2009 then you can carry that good work straight into next year.

If this is true, why didn't the F60 receive any aero upgrades that were found for the F2010? Isn't that what happens when you evolve a chassis? The tricks that you found for next year get adapted to this years' car? Unless, it is a completely different philosophy, and will not interact in the proper manner...

My guess is that Ferrari 2010 will be very different to 2009 because of KERS, fuel efficiency and double diffuser. And if Alonso's Ferrari deal was made long ago, then I would expect that 2010 ferrari will be made to suit Alonso as well.

[lebesset]

yep , I am absolutely certain that massa will have given the maximum feedback to make sure it suits alonso next year

[kilcoo316]

I remember in the early days of true ground-effects, with venturis and all, Arrows tried tilting engine and gearbox up.

In other words the crank was not horizontal, wonder if that trick could be viable for 2010, kilcoo?

Did arrows tilt it around the longitudinal axis of the car?

(rather than the lateral axis which would be the case here?)



I'm aerodynamics and fluid systems (with a bit of composites manufacturing throw in on the side) - wouldn't be able to make much in the way of definitive statements on the mechanical aspects of that... but I can't see anything that would immediately rule it out (although, that definitely does not mean such a reason may not exist!)

[kilcoo316]

If this is true, why didn't the F60 receive any aero upgrades that were found for the F2010? Isn't that what happens when you evolve a chassis? The tricks that you found for next year get adapted to this years' car? Unless, it is a completely different philosophy, and will not interact in the proper manner...

Hmm... why broadcast your ideas onto the world?


Besides, the 2010 cars will have a different wheel base, which means subtle changes to the details of the aerodynamics.

Adapting the new parts to the 2009 car would require at least some tunnel time, tunnel time that Ferrari obviously deemed not in their best interests.