Asphalt run offs - abused as race track extension

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Ciro Pabón
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Joined: 11 May 2005, 00:31

Re: Asphalt run offs - abused as race track extension

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The answer to this question is a little more complicated than what it seems.

First answer is yes, the white lines on the borders define the edge of the track. That's the simple answer.

Now, you could take the south american point of view. Second answer is, well, what happens if some crooked steward decides to repaint subreptitiously the white lines by scurrying along the track in the middle of the night, taking advantage of the new moon, the torrential rain and the bad timing of guard dog patrols and searchlights?

Well, if somebody tries to throw, I don't know, Yuji Ide, your favorite driver, out of boundaries, by repainting the lines arbitrarily, and I were working for that team and I happened to stroll by the track during the rain after the repainting and I noticed the dirty trick, then, after a proper bribe, I would ask stewards to re-repaint the lines using what's called "the reference width".

I've posted insistently over the years, to no avail in view of the disparate comments in this thread, the list of oficial FIA circuits, Class 1 and 1A (that is, "Formula-one-able") specifying that reference width. You can check for the list, is interred in another very "archeology-able" thread, for your delight and entertainement. Of course, nobody read other people posts in this forum, being all of us very occupied writing our own posts.

The smarty pants that abound in the net could say: "Ha! Ciro, how moronic is your answer. Haven't you noticed that the track has not the same witdth along its length? Are you so blind (blind as a moderator! Haha!) or is it the colombian rum you're drinking? Hahaha!"

Well, my skeptical friends, let me assure my vision is far from impaired: on the contrary, old rum has sharpened it to superhuman levels. Yes, I've noticed: the reference width is not mantained through the track. There is a way to calculate what is called the "extra-width" around curves, depending on the angle of the curve, the length of car, and the distance between axles.

Finally, you can always use the plans to the track, that indicate, with millimetric precision, the position of the edge lines. Unfortunately, those plans are interred somewhere in FIA building in Paris, right besides the official FIA/FOTA toilet paper stock, I imagine, and they are not readily available on the Net.

If you have no access to FIA building you could use the lines I've drawn of three tracks only (during the last three years or so). Give me another fifteen years and we're done.

You can check Appendixes N and O to regulations (I think), the ones that describe track homologation, to go into the mesmerizing and dangerous details. Just go into the FIA regulations link in the Home page of this forum (Tomba thinks about everything) and, once in FIA page, then click on Appendixes or Circuit Regulations, I don't remember. There is an entire appendix devoted to how you have to draw the plans, complete from the Autocad Blocks to the line colour to the way to draw the edge lines.

I also posted the list of track regulations somewhere around this site, just in case.

Now, given the coordinates of the edge lines, you could enforce any of your crazy plans about what to do when an infortunate driver goes out of boundaries.

My personal favorite is the crocodrile moat, equipped on the edges with laser beams that blind the driver. That, or the Paul Ricard abbrasive tungsten stripes, I haven't decided yet.

Out of boundaries=Out of tyres - Perfection is everything at Paul Ricard. Those stripes can shred you tyres in no time
Image

The blue ones allow you to limp back to pits. The red ones shred your tyres instantly, throwing you into a wild spin and crushing the car. Nah, just joking.

Rev cuts or tyre shredding are enough? I don't know. If they're not subtle, they're at least equally subtle. The current hot question is what to do: if to use a disintegrator/annihilator raygun (useful in traffic jams, also) or to keep track of GPS location and give a pit penalty to the driver. Which one looks better on TV?
Ciro

kilcoo316
kilcoo316
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Joined: 09 Mar 2005, 16:45
Location: Kilcoo, Ireland

Re: Asphalt run offs - abused as race track extension

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Giblet wrote:Dissambling posts to argue is pointless. Try to argue for your idea instead of nitpicking every sentence.
When the counter argument is non-sensical, I will disassemble it as I please.
Giblet wrote: If you are oversteering your car with throttle, away from a wall, and the throttle is cut, you are now heading towards the wall. That would be a snap, just lime I said.
You understand what oversteer is?

You know that the car is by definition not following the most achievable radii anyway?

If you want to avoid the wall looming in front, better to slow down a bit further, avoiding the need for countersteering, and allowing you to apply positive steering input.


I cannot think of a single instance where a driver has avoided a wall by gunning the car. Can you?


If you want to try and make a reasonable argument, you could point towards places like Ste. Devote at Monaco, where if they overshoot, the drivers will need a good amount of throttle to do a spin turn. However, areas like the outside of Ste. Devote, or Mirabeau can remain full throttle zones, as no driver will be advantaged by running into them.

Giblet wrote:A Marshall at every corner with a magic device to watch and stop any car and the reaction time needed? Or maybe youthink that they shoul just sit and watch the video screens, hoping the race director shows the right shot?

You seem like a smart guy who is more interested in arguing than actually explaining how this could actually be accomplished for a reasonable cost.

Tell me how this could actually work in the real world.
That has already been covered.

GPS is more than accurate enough. It is also entirely free from human subjectiveness, thus, the drivers know exactly where they stand as consistency will be perfect.

kilcoo316
kilcoo316
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Joined: 09 Mar 2005, 16:45
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Re: Asphalt run offs - abused as race track extension

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axle wrote:and elctronic interference is more dangerous than helpful...if our road cars where speed limited by electronics around town how dangerous would that be?! You must let the driver have control of the car at all times, or otherwise he is merely a passenger...
What... like ABS, ESP or traction control? :wtf:


Seriously... :roll:

Giblet
Giblet
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Joined: 19 Mar 2007, 01:47
Location: Canada

Re: Asphalt run offs - abused as race track extension

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You are living in a fantasy land.

Sorry if we don't agrre on oversteer and understeer. Sorry if you think that suddenly cutting the throttle in every single situation that a car goes off track is a remotely good idea.

Nobody agrees with you that cutting throttle is a good idea, yet here you still are, adrguing it should be done.

Even if it can be done, you are unable to explain why. Your idea should have enough merit to appear even remotely sane with a small amount of thinking about it. I can come up with very few +'s, and a whole lot of -'s, with no effort.

Does ABS ever suddenly slam on the brakes when the driver doesn't tell it to?

No.

Does TC ever just floor the car when the driver doesn't want it to?

No.

Shall I continue with ESP? Does it make your car do something you don't want?

You can answer that I think.

These are technologies that supplement the driver inputs. You should really know that man. Ie. Sorry Mr Driver sir, that was too much throttle, let me help you keep the tires from spinning. Or sorry Mr Driver sir that was too much brake so I have modulated the braking force to keep the wheel(s) from locking and help your brake straight in a straight line.

You keep going down roads that have nothing to do with your this debate.

You of course are free to dismantle posts any way you want, but if your only motive is to disprove forwards nothing for your this idea.

No go aghead and argue all my points again, as like I said before, there are still a whole raft of reasons while this will never happen, that we have not even addressed yet. I would just rather debate like in real life, when each side is allowed to say their whole point. This is why in debates the opposing side isn't allowed to constantly interrupt. To each his own.

The fact that there is no reasonable justification for the cost of a system like this to reinforce one single rule seems more like mad science than realistic problem analysis and solving. This point alone is enough, but I am looking forward to hear any more ideas about this system that would actually allow me to pursue it as a reasonable solution.

If you want to prove how much you know about over and under steer compared to me, that is fine. I have no interest in trying to debate on a technical level with most here, so I keep it simple silly. KISS. KISS tells me all technical things aside, taking control away from the driver (IE controlling the car remotely) is a bad idea. Get past that and we have a discussion, otherwise, I tire.

Cheers. I just want to keep this civil and marginally intelligent.

Mild throttle over steer, is using the throttle to rotate the rear of the car at a greater rate than it would if it was just following the radius of the corner. This is the only over steer condition I am talking about. If that throttle gets cut, you lose that rotation of the rear of the car, and the fronts were possibly countersteering a bit, again pointing off line. Away from where you are actually aiming the car.

Now cut the throttle, rear stops rotating, and the front tires might be pointed slightly off line. Sudden cut, sudden corrections needed, without the use of throttle above 12k to do so. Dangerous I think.

One more tidbit for you disseminate. If a car spins off track, the driver will have no throttle to bring the car under control again, how is he to regain control, or turn around in a tight position? The driver usually floors the car to spin it back around.

And you will like this. GPS is not accurate enough. Non military GPS has an accuracy of 1 to 30 meters, depending on interfering factors.

"GPS accuracy is affected by a number of factors, including satellite positions, noise in the radio signal, atmospheric conditions, and natural barriers to the signal. Noise can create an error between 1 to 10 meters and results from static or interference from something near the receiver or something on the same frequency. Clouds and other atmospheric phenomena, and objects such a mountains or buildings between the satellite and the receiver can also produce error, sometimes up to 30 meters. The most accurate determination of position occurs when the satellite and receiver have a clear view of each other and no other objects interfere."

So again, bad idea.
Before I do anything I ask myself “Would an idiot do that?” And if the answer is yes, I do not do that thing. - Dwight Schrute

Mystery Steve
Mystery Steve
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Joined: 25 Sep 2009, 07:04
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Re: Asphalt run offs - abused as race track extension

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If you cut the throttle on a car that cuts a corner you will have some pretty massive weight transfer and that will upset the car. If the car is cornering that can cause total loss of control. Vehicle control aside, I don't see cutting the throttle being a viable option. I personally think that a pit drive through or stop-and-go would work just fine. It would accomplish essentially the same task while being cheaper to implement and you don't have the potential safety issue of a slower car entering the racing line in front of traffic:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fL6jjLbpn-M[/youtube]
kilcoo316 wrote:I cannot think of a single instance where a driver has avoided a wall by gunning the car. Can you?
If the back end starts to step out on you, a logical response is to give it more gas. Drive a RWD car in the rain or snow and you'll see what I'm talking about.

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Rob W
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Joined: 18 Aug 2006, 03:28

Re: Asphalt run offs - abused as race track extension

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Here is an alternative idea.

Why couldn't there be a timing system which log the amount of time they are off-track. At any stage if they exceed say X seconds in a given lap they get notified of a drive through penalty. This time-period could be adjusted to suit each track - especially as some have a lot more run-off than others.

Of course this would need to factor in people being pushed off track, having a flat tire and trying to limp back to the pits, time spent behind the safety car etc... but I'm sure it could be implemented so it works under normal racing conditions

There are some issues with it but for the most part it does a few things which are needed: it punishes drivers equally and without much of the potential gripes about marshal judgement calls (which often seem open to debate); it doesn't create any safety issues which exist with automatic throttle control systems or off-track obstacles to ruin tires etc.

It would also tie in with existing data collection and timing systems.

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Pandamasque
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Re: Asphalt run offs - abused as race track extension

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Rob W wrote:Why couldn't there be a timing system which log the amount of time they are off-track. At any stage if they exceed say X seconds in a given lap they get notified of a drive through penalty.
So you have to drive through a run-off area as fast as you can. :lol:

axle
axle
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Re: Asphalt run offs - abused as race track extension

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kilcoo316 wrote:
axle wrote:and elctronic interference is more dangerous than helpful...if our road cars where speed limited by electronics around town how dangerous would that be?! You must let the driver have control of the car at all times, or otherwise he is merely a passenger...
What... like ABS, ESP or traction control? :wtf:


Seriously... :roll:
No :roll: I am starting to think you just like being obnoxious and differcult. Whatever floats your boat :roll: :roll:

Obviously, I was talking about the systems that some safety groups want to introduce that physically stop cars breaking the speed limit. And as for the second part I was talking about drivers in F1...where TC, ABS, ESP is all banned...
- Axle

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Chaparral
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Re: Asphalt run offs - abused as race track extension

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What is wrong with this picture below - absolutely nothing - its racing - its Dijon which hosted 6 F1 GP's - plenty of run off areas and sand traps - I have no idea what you guys are on about talking about electronic limiters etc if you run off the track or gain advantage - for gods sake get real - have most of you actually driven a car (or bike) do you actually live in a real world - this conversation is just absolute bullshit - if you want a world of controlled race cars try Scalextrics or RC cars not this crap :roll:

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_q ... type=&aq=f
The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free and good men die like dogs - there's also the negative side' - Hunter S Thompson

autogyro
autogyro
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Re: Asphalt run offs - abused as race track extension

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Of course someone could find the budget for the idea I gave to the FIA years ago.
Flexible friction surfaces stretched over run off areas, that would be sucked up by the low pressure area under the cars and present a friction surface to slow the car, keep the car stable in a crash situation, spread the deceleration away from impact and in this case of course, discourage drivers from going off track to gain advantage.

RH1300S
RH1300S
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Joined: 06 Jun 2005, 15:29

Re: Asphalt run offs - abused as race track extension

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autogyro wrote:Of course someone could find the budget for the idea I gave to the FIA years ago.
Flexible friction surfaces stretched over run off areas, that would be sucked up by the low pressure area under the cars and present a friction surface to slow the car, keep the car stable in a crash situation, spread the deceleration away from impact and in this case of course, discourage drivers from going off track to gain advantage.
Before half the world dismantles this idea.

I have to say it's great out of the box thinking....elegant 8)

I can't help but see a mental image of motorcyclists trampolining into orbit :D Nothing to do with whether it works or not, just a mental link between a stretched flexible surface and bouncing.

Giblet
Giblet
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Re: Asphalt run offs - abused as race track extension

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Chaparral wrote:What is wrong with this picture below - absolutely nothing - its racing - its Dijon which hosted 6 F1 GP's - plenty of run off areas and sand traps - I have no idea what you guys are on about talking about electronic limiters etc if you run off the track or gain advantage - for gods sake get real - have most of you actually driven a car (or bike) do you actually live in a real world - this conversation is just absolute bullshit - if you want a world of controlled race cars try Scalextrics or RC cars not this crap :roll:

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_q ... type=&aq=f
+1

Chap forever the voice of reason. Exactly what I was trying and unable to say eloquently. This is not an electronic fix.
Before I do anything I ask myself “Would an idiot do that?” And if the answer is yes, I do not do that thing. - Dwight Schrute

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Pandamasque
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Re: Asphalt run offs - abused as race track extension

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Chaparral wrote:What is wrong with this picture below - absolutely nothing - its racing - its Dijon which hosted 6 F1 GP's - plenty of run off areas and sand traps ........

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_q ... type=&aq=f
Oh my!! I saw that race and it made me sick! I don't think DTM has anything to do with motorsport. It's like a German way of doing NASCAR. They abuse the track boundaries so blatantly it's beyond belief. DTM drivers use the width of the track from wall to wall. Remove the walls and they'll go racing around the grandstands. Honestly, in every DTM race you can disqualify most of the drivers for barely using the track at all.

Dijon is a fantastic track if you drive it between the lines.

@ Giblet - I agree with the electronics idea being plain dangerous. Even having an automatic gearbox with a mind of its own may be dangerous, not to mention the throttle being cut out.
The best idea, imo, is to put a strip of low-grip surface (astroturf?) between the white line (or curb if there is one) and the asphalt run-off. The run off would be just as safe but going there at racing speed while cornering will end like LH's race in Monza.
I think they did just that in Abu-Dhabi.