Mclaren Mercedes MP4-25

[Giblet]

+1

but

I wonder if some teams in the past maybe thought they could design a car with a specific driver in mind, and tried to do so, to either failure or success or mediocrity.

BAR for example was never quick enough with JV, and I have to wonder if they tried to make a skateboard every year for him, as that is the setup style he is quoted as liking.

[ISLAMATRON]

BAR just could not make a fast and or reliable car... JV had already proven he was a fast race winning driver in the capable Williams and in CART. And he really didnt do that badly against Heidfeld at BMW... one thing though, maybe he hated or wasnt comfortable being in the midfield as he tended to get caught up in the midfield malarky alot.

[tadzio89]

what does '+1' means?

[Scotracer]

what does '+1' means?

I agree, i.e. "Add me to the list of those who share this opinion".

[PlatinumZealot]

I am glad that is cleared up. No more driver excuses (Kimi, Hekki and Alonso fans!!).

[myurr]

At the risk of disagreeing with Paddy Lowe who is infinitely more knowledgeable than me about these things, I would have thought that some aspects of the car would be tailored to the driver. For example Lewis is relatively tough on the tyres and easily generates heat in them. Jenson is the complete opposite. Surely if the car was to be designed to get the best from Lewis they would design a suspension geometry, etc., around the fact that they could be relatively easy on the tyres as this would help Lewis keep them in shape and he wouldn't have a problem getting heat into them.

Conversely Jenson would then struggle to generate sufficient heat in the tyres and hence have issues in qualifying.

Could Mr Lowe have been giving a simplistic answer in the interests of driver neutrality whilst the reality is subtly different?

[PlatinumZealot]

In the article Whitmarsh says that Hamilton and Jenson Both have a neutral style..

But for argument sake, we must think of some problems:

How does Mclaren Design a car for Lewis Hamilton/Jenson Button? Would they not make the car as best as possible first then give Lewis and Jenson it to test?

With these new regulations for next year, how can an engineer quantify a drivers style to use as input into designing a new car?

Even AFTER the car is made and tested by Lewis and Jenson, and the engineers analyse data from each driver, what sort of things can be adjusted if: one driver is unhappy, or both drivers are unhappy?



*My conclusion is that the priority is to extract the maximum performance from the machine. The style of a driver is just a series of different inputs into the control system that is the car. These inputs already lie in the range of possibilities and have already been accounted for. All control systems have ONE optimal behaviour for a certain task. It is just a matter of luck or sheer talent if the driver has a style or can adapt his style to operate the machine in the optimal state.

OK..I never went to control systems class much.. but here is something about optimal control on Wiki, and look at the shining example..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optimal_control

Optimal control deals with the problem of finding a control law for a given system such that a certain optimality criterion is achieved. A control problem includes a cost functional that is a function of state and control variables. An optimal control is a set of differential equations describing the paths of the control variables that minimize the cost functional. The optimal control can be derived using Pontryagin's maximum principle (a necessary condition), or by solving the Hamilton-Jacobi-Bellman equation (a sufficient condition).

We begin with a simple example. Consider a car traveling on a straight line through a hilly road. The question is, how should the driver press the accelerator pedal in order to minimize the total traveling time? Clearly in this example, the term control law refers specifically to the way in which the driver presses the accelerator and shifts the gears. The "system" consists of both the car and the road, and the optimality criterion is the minimization of the total traveling time. Control problems usually include ancillary constraints. For example the amount of available fuel might be limited, the accelerator pedal cannot be pushed through the floor of the car, speed limits, etc.

A proper cost functional is a mathematical expression giving the traveling time as a function of the speed, geometrical considerations, and initial conditions of the system. It is often the case that the constraints are interchangeable with the cost functional.

Another optimal control problem is to find the way to drive the car so as to minimize its fuel consumption, given that it must complete a given course in a time not exceeding some amount. Yet another control problem is to minimize the total monetary cost of completing the trip, given assumed monetary prices for time and fuel

I don't know what the rest of the article is saying..lol but I hope you understand my thinking.

The words in red has me thinking. I think driving say, the RedBull car into say Q3 in AbuDahbi will be in the "sufficient" category. But notice, that to get the perfect lap using the peak of the cars performance would be in the "necessary" category. In other words there is only ONE NECESSARY combination of driving to make the car drive at 100%. To figure out that combination is up to the driver. That alone can separate The two drivers.

Remember I am talking about a car that is OPTIMISED it can not get any better no matter what!

Another example, One driver is only doing enough to get through and his fans will be complaining that the car was not made for him. While the other driver is more versatile and/or intelligent and realises what necessary changes in his driving style must be made to meet the optimal performance. The second driver will beat his team mate all the time because he has unlocked "the secrets" of the car; he is on or near to the optimal combination "pathway".

[pipex]

I'm partially with you n_smikle. Your approach to this is very interesting to me.
I think that i have seen some systems in that two or more different control inputs could get the same optimum output variable depending on what the cost function is. If the system is nonlinear, which i think this is, there is a possibility that two different control actions could lead to the same optimum time. Or not. We don't know. It depends on the model.
With all the simulation capability that McLaren has it could be possible for them to determine the exact perfect lap in terms of car and track parameters. But the inverse problem of finding the inputs that get the perfect lap could be difficult or impossible to solve. And we must take into account all the variables that are not considered in the model!.
It could be interesting to know the real capabilities of the simulators the teams employ and what they can get out of them.

[ISLAMATRON]

Maybe Lewis is "tough" on the tires because thats what these B'stones need to get optimum performance... Is Lewis not a good enough driver to be able to adapt his style to what is needed? I think he has proven that he is... maybe if we get another tire supplier in 2011 then he will adapt to a smooth style for tire that require it... as Timmy Hardaway used to say.... "hes gots skillz"

[ringo]

I don't fully buy the tough on the tyres theory though. The car's braking system is designed so as take full advantage of the tyres all the time. Maximum baking pressure is ideal, any driver doing soft braking is wasting precious time.
(Also taking into consideration that the driver has to taper off his braking force as the car slows and loses down force reducing the mechanical grip threshold of the tires).
Every driver sets up his brakes carefully in practice, carefully getting the balance to be on the edge of the tyres grip limits in different turns and speeds.
Being harsh would mean taking the tyre above it's design limits when braking or steering. I don't think steering can harm the tires significantly and hard braking is only detrimental if the driver forgets what he was doing in practice and goes overboard. The team strategies are very meticulous so i would guess each turn has it's own brake setting for different fuel loads.
And then again we don't know how bridgestone designs these things, they could probably take more than any driver can posibly throw at them.

[axle]

I think it breaks down quite simply.
With the information they have they build the fastest theroretical car they can. Its then the drivers problem to find out how to extract that performance.
The designers only factor in the physical properties of the driver. So Buttons only issue is fitting in the car, which should be easy.

[gibells]

I know it's the wrong forum to put it on but drivers style is an interesting topic, as one style may mean a driver being particularly hard on brakes than another. I think Jenson and Lewis for different reasons, are both hard on their brakes. I think we saw it in Singapore for Jenson and Abudahbi for Lewis.

I enjoy watching Motogp, and its interesting that the Goat, the Boss, the Doctor- Valentino has been able to adapt his style to suit. Be it high corner speeds (250s, TC'd 800s), or the maniac early 990s which needed plenty backing into corners and left plenty rubber on the exit of corners. It was easy to identify riders like Schwantz, Rainey, Edwards, Biaggi, who had a particular style, but with Valentino he has no marked style, except that he seems able to turn into the corner earlier. He is also a wiley old fox who uses race craft more than anyone I've ever seen.

Now you've allowed me to rabbit I'll make my point- that the best driver out there will be one who is able to adapt their style to different circumstances better than anyone else. So that means making his tyres last while also edging out a lead. As much as I like Jenson, my money is on Lewis.

[Fil]

ahem..

Forum topic for this stuff..


Gary Paffet test driving the MP4-24 today, and Oliver Turvey.
Anyone know anything about Turvey?
Anyone have any of their comparative times from day 1 of the test?

[Craigy]

Anyone know anything about Turvey?

Yeah, he's from Penrith (England), he's 22. He's currently racing a 3.5L world series renault car successfully. ex-Karter, and very quick too.

He's a pretty handy racer.

C

[shotzski]

Hi guys! How are you all doing?

Just a quick question. Sorry for being off-topic.
Now that Mercedes and Mclaren are parting ways, will some of Mclaren sponsors leave for Mercedes GP? How would that impact Mclaren?