About the F1 Resource Restriction Agreement

[timbo]

I bet my old tennis shoe against a pot of gold that Ferrari have engineered enough loop holes into the resource agreement to maintain their status as a leading team. As they do not have a brilliant designer like Rory Byrne and no strategic technical talent like Ross Brawn or a manager like Jean Todt they simply have to rely on accumulated wealth to retain their position at the top of the sport.

Oh, a bit of fresh air... So, Schu's titles weren't solely based on "accumulated wealth" but actually required a bit of talent. Good to know.
I wonder why it comes from Lola. Actually with all their business revolving around single-seaters (and some prototypes as well) they have all chances for some clever hidden technology transfer. Dallara can probably benefit from that too.

[Chaparral]

For 2011, the F1 team personnel cap of 280 will come in to force

Didnt that only apply under the 40 mil pound cap proposed by Mosely at the time and which Lola applied for an entry under - that and any other cap has been binned unless Im mistaken someone??

[WhiteBlue]

... unless Im mistaken....

that bit appears to be true

[Chaparral]

... unless Im mistaken....

that bit appears to be true

Dont be a smartarse - can you supply the rules and if so caps that apply in 2011 if not stfu..............

[xpensive]

If one of F1's purposes is to prevent people from being unemployed, I guess I missed something fundamental.

But anyway, I think the propsition to keep a team's headcount in check from the outside is simply preposterous, anyone who ever ran a business would perhaps agree with me. How about a limitation on working hours, temps, trainees, students, consultants, volonteers and coffe-breaks?

[timbo]

How about a limitation on working hours, temps, trainees, students, consultants, volonteers and coffe-breaks?

And don't forget toilet paper.

[Steven]

If one of F1's purposes is to prevent people from being unemployed, I guess I missed something fundamental.

But anyway, I think the propsition to keep a team's headcount in check from the outside is simply preposterous, anyone who ever ran a business would perhaps agree with me. How about a limitation on working hours, temps, trainees, students, consultants, volonteers and coffe-breaks?

I'm sure that this is not a person limit, but rather a maximum of 280 full-time equivalents. If not, it's not a smart proposal, but limiting to 280 men working hours would be the same as 560 part-timers. I see no problem with that.

Second, I doubt the 280 mark, as Peter Sauber recently announced that Sauber's staff will be reduced to 250 "to comply with the budget limits".

[xpensive]

If one of F1's purposes is to prevent people from being unemployed, I guess I missed something fundamental.

But anyway, I think the propsition to keep a team's headcount in check from the outside is simply preposterous, anyone who ever ran a business would perhaps agree with me. How about a limitation on working hours, temps, trainees, students, consultants, volonteers and coffe-breaks?

I'm sure that this is not a person limit, but rather a maximum of 280 full-time equivalents. If not, it's not a smart proposal, but limiting to 280 men working hours would be the same as 560 part-timers. I see no problem with that.

Second, I doubt the 280 mark, as Peter Sauber recently announced that Sauber's staff will be reduced to 250 "to comply with the budget limits".

I think it matters very little how you label it, moderator, try define your "full-time equivalent" in France or China?

What about overtime, paid or unpaid? In my design-engineering office people do plenty of the latter all the time, not to mention working from home. Should the teams be obliged to keep track on man-hours, perhaps install FIA-in-and-out clocking-devices?

[ISLAMATRON]

I-tron.. i don't quite understand why you quoted me when you're rant has nothing to do with it..?

With your sarcasm noted, what exactly is your point?
are you happy, or unhappy, with the apparent employee restriction for 2011?
are you happy, or unhappy, that FOTA came up with the agreed employee & resource restrictions?
are you happy, or unhappy, that the FIA did not get their way and impose their own restrictions for the future years?

I am in full absolute serious mode now... sarcasm fully off

I quoted you because as you cleverly figuered out(absolutely no sarcasm intented) the extra teams(which came thru Mosely's efforts, regardless of what FOTA wants to claim) will fortunatly for those employed in the F1 community will hopefully pick up the slack for the teams who must trim the "fat" in these lean times just to keep the doors open.

Unlike others(on this forum) who stand on the "compete or die" platform, I happen to like seeing full grids rather than a waching a replay of the 2005 USGP. Up to this year there have never been so few cars on the grid, and as fans that limits the depth of driving talant we get to see as well as engineering ideas. Even when Senna tested the Williams and the McLaren and drove faster than their regular drivers they did not sign him because they had drivers with contracts so he went to one of the lower teams Toleman which in these days probly could not keep the doors open. We were lucky enough to witness Senna's brilliance even in that Toleman. MS got his first drive in a Jordan, which was a pretty new team which unfortunatly could not maintain and has since sold off. Alonso(and Webber) started off at Minardi and it was a pleasure to watch them develope into the complete drivers they are today, but where is Minardi? Maybe if Luca and his band of merry idiots did not make it so difficult for the small teams to even exist we would not have missed a year in which the young Senna could have been driving or a Paul di Resta who has been brilliant in DTM and honestly has the same pedegree as Hamilton in winning every junior Formula he has entered.

I am happy with the employee restriction IF it helps keep some of the smaller teams on the grid. I am unhappy that instead of these silly restrictions(like front wing homologation) they just did not impose a hard budget cap and open up the technical regs accordingly as was the well thought FIA plan. And I am unhappy because just as WB stated, this is a FOTA plan cooked up by Luca, so it will have enough loopholes so that Ferrari(who has only ever shown an utter disregard for any rules or "gentlemans agreements") will continue as is and it will continue to make it difficult for the smaller teams.

[Chaparral]

G'day IS

look Ferrari have always been the chosen one (and a $100 mil USD in their pocket to show up) we all accept that - its just a given and will not change anytime soon.

Is Paul di Resta that good Im sorry I havent seen him down under on TV we dont get the telecasts - but in junior formula's I used to watch Hamilton and he was head and shoulders above the rest - similar story for Di Resta IS??

Regarding personnel restrictions Im still waiting on WB to come back to us with a definite number or if any such rule exists full stop

[ISLAMATRON]

For 2011, the F1 team personnel cap of 280 will come in to force

Didnt that only apply under the 40 mil pound cap proposed by Mosely at the time and which Lola applied for an entry under - that and any other cap has been binned unless Im mistaken someone??

Yes you are mistaken, on several points.

The "40 mil pound"(as you mistakenly call it) the FIA put forward did not ever impose any regulations on employee numbers. The FIA plan simply put forward a maximum budget cap that the teams could not exceed. If you wanted to blow that cap on hundreds of engineers then it was you choice... or if you wanted less engineers and more coffee pots to keep them awake and working longer hours then more power to you.

This is a new FOTA regulation that they have put forward towards "cost cutting", as opposed to the FIA's budget cap, unfortunatly FOTA has been tight lipped about their "resource restriction" so all we know are bits and pieces like this employee restriction and the bodywork homologation, and that unlike the FIA plan it does not allow for any techical unrestrictions from the current formula.

Is Paul di Resta that good Im sorry I havent seen him down under on TV we dont get the telecasts - but in junior formula's I used to watch Hamilton and he was head and shoulders above the rest - similar story for Di Resta IS??

Regarding personnel restrictions Im still waiting on WB to come back to us with a definite number or if any such rule exists full stop

From what I've seen Di Resta is at least extremely deserving of a chance at F1, He was fighting for race wins in a 3 year old DTM car his rookie season and has continued to shine in DTM since then. Just as you noticed Hamilton head and shoulders above his jr formula compition so was Di Resta, at least in my view.

[Fil]

I am in full absolute serious mode now... [...]

Thanks for the clarification Islamatron I appreciate the Senna analogy to 21st Century F1, and agree wholeheartedly. It would be fantastic for the new teams to take risks to blood new talent, i'm curious to see how Hildebrand goes in the current tests.
Pardon my ignorance, was Senna (the late-uncle) a pay-driver for Toleman?


If teams are willing to cheat the technical regulations, what do you think would occur with financial regulations such as a budget cap..?
Together with their two cars, it is a little difficult to place their accountants, payroll and bank accounts into parc ferme! That is my sole concern with that proposal.

Employee limits, as good as they potentially sound, instantly mean each employee is that much more valuable. To me that automatically means they are worth more financially, questioning how much a numerical limit will save financially.

TBH i honestly couldn't care less from whom proposals originate, as long as they have the potential to work. so far, there are glaring holes in all proposals given by both FOTA and FIA.

[WhiteBlue]

... unless Im mistaken....

that bit appears to be true

Dont be a smartarse - can you supply the rules and if so caps that apply in 2011 if not stfu..............

Well, perhaps you take a look into the linked document that was provided with the opening post of this thread.

http://f1.gpupdate.net/en/news/2009/11/ ... he-breach/

The Lola chairman Martin Birrane referred to the 2011 head count cap by number (280) and he is a credible source. Lola claim to be in permanent readiness to enter F1 even for next year. So he should know what the resource restriction rules are going to be. It is entirely feasible that they are in touch with the FIA and that they update their business plan on a continuous basis. The resource restriction agreement was signed before the 2012 Concord was signed, so it should be well known to all applicants who continue their efforts to enter F1.

Regarding the Sauber plan to cut back to an even lower head count right now it is not unexpected. Sauber simply cannot afford more than 250 team personnel in the 2010 budget. He is likely to rely on Petronas money and some payments by FOM only. Other sponsors may be in the plan but nowhere near to the funding that was secure with BMW. So the Sauber 2010 head count is totally unrelated to a FOTA 2011 limit. At least that is the way I read the different press releases.

I can understand that FOTA has no interest to let their employees know what kind of redundancies will happen next year. But in this business it is very unlikely that the secret will remain under wraps as the Lola slip has shown. Now that the cat is out of the bag they can as well tell the interested public what the rules are.

[ISLAMATRON]

Thanks for the clarification Islamatron I appreciate the Senna analogy to 21st Century F1, and agree wholeheartedly. It would be fantastic for the new teams to take risks to blood new talent, i'm curious to see how Hildebrand goes in the current tests.
Pardon my ignorance, was Senna (the late-uncle) a pay-driver for Toleman?

If teams are willing to cheat the technical regulations, what do you think would occur with financial regulations such as a budget cap..?
Together with their two cars, it is a little difficult to place their accountants, payroll and bank accounts into parc ferme! That is my sole concern with that proposal.

Employee limits, as good as they potentially sound, instantly mean each employee is that much more valuable. To me that automatically means they are worth more financially, questioning how much a numerical limit will save financially.

TBH i honestly couldn't care less from whom proposals originate, as long as they have the potential to work. so far, there are glaring holes in all proposals given by both FOTA and FIA.

No doubt the teams will try to "cheat" or circumvent the rules/tech regs/budget cap/resource restrictions or what have you, that is the nature of the teams and the competition.
BUT THE MAIN DIFFERENCE is the FIA proposal allowed for the opening of the technical regs given cost constraints whereas the FOTA proposal keep the same ultra tight tech regs, actually making them tighter with body part homologations, while allowing absolutely no room for a clever new team to introduce something that could put them further up in the field. And all the while FOTA(Luca really) does this while claiming a concern for the "technical DNA" of F1.

I will conceed that both Max & Luca are assholes of the highest degree... but Max was the asshole with the better plan.

And yeah I do think Senna the elder was a "pay" driver at Toleman, or at least he brought considerable sponsorship from Brazil with him to Toleman(Banco National come to mind)

[Chaparral]

Well, perhaps you take a look into the linked document that was provided with the opening post of this thread.

http://f1.gpupdate.net/en/news/2009/11/ ... he-breach/

The Lola chairman Martin Birrane referred to the 2011 head count cap by number (280) and he is a credible source.

Well Gugz I did read that first up and in essence it means nothing - your still a smartarse and no more credible than Birrane who sits on the perimeter - go figure whos the bigger tosser - I can only guess

The "40 mil pound"(as you mistakenly call it)

Well hang on Islamatron - its well documented that Mosely set a target of 40 mil BGP and that was the target he applied - after that everything went pear shaped and since then there have been NO budget figures toted or presented correct??

Di Resta - yes I have seen him - we now have DTM on OneHD - DTM its hard to get a grip on drivers in this or any other tin top series I will reserve my judgement.