A great F1 passing study (must read!)

[Conceptual]

I care less about overtaking, and care more about overtaking attempts.

I think solving the off-line marble problem, as well as getting some support race cars that by their type, need to take a different line around the course (than the super tight F1 cars can) would help more than any aero scheme that the engineers will get around anyways... If you had a 1500Kg, closed wheel support series that ran 100 laps before an F1 race, you would have a very wide rubbered in line that would help the off-line passing attempts in a race.

That is what I would do to increase the overtaking possibilities in F1.

[Ciro Pabón]

Well, Conceptual, I heard elsewhere that FIA OWG (Overtaking Working Group) is... well, working in a study about the width of tracks. That'll take care of marbles, at least. We all know why freeways are a place where is easy to overtake, when compared with two-lane roads.

They are also studying the concept we introduced here (ehem, I'm so proud of you , guys! ) about a differential side-slope, like the ones that existed at Monza and Brooklands, in times of yore. I'm sorry to repost this: you participated in that thread, but again, forgive me, time has passed.

Brooklands differential side-slope: it's not good, the ride height varies, because the surface is curved, so, as the height of front wings increases in some racing lines, you lose downforce


Forum idea: "almost straight" differential side-slope


You (I mean, not Conceptual, but the other "you") can find some rough numbers about it here that, in principle, prove that the concept could work.

[Conceptual]

Will they really reconstruct several corners at 18 different tracks to make this happen?

I'm all for it, but MAN, you are talking a Billion euros or more, are you not?

[mx_tifoso]

I would say that it would be implemented on new circuits. As you state, the cost for redesigning every circuit would be off the charts, and IMO not worth it in regards to ROI.

[Conceptual]

I would say that it would be implemented on new circuits. As you state, the cost for redesigning every circuit would be off the charts, and IMO not worth it in regards to ROI.

What do you think about having a larger, heavier car in a support series that would "rubber in" an alternate line to promote off-line passing attempts?

GP2 uses pretty much the same line as F1 cars, so I don't think that they are really helping anything... If anything, they are hurting by pushing the racers onto an over-rubbered line!

[Pandamasque]

What do you think about having a larger, heavier car in a support series that would "rubber in" an alternate line to promote off-line passing attempts?

GP2 uses pretty much the same line as F1 cars, so I don't think that they are really helping anything... If anything, they are hurting by pushing the racers onto an over-rubbered line!

What sort of car would create a different enough line?

[Conceptual]

I would think that any production type saloon would give you a wider line...

I don't see a 1500 Kg car with 500Kg of downforce cornering as well as an F1 car, so the line would almost have to push out from the apex I would think...

And if Bridgestone compound-matched the Saloon tyres to the F1 tyres (some synergizing effect of the two types), you could seriously have molecular velcro on this alternate line, thus increasing the cornering power available.

I'm sure that there are a billion details that would need to be considered and worked out, but I am sure that it would be cheaper (and less destructive) than reconfiguring all of the F1 tracks that need help!

Thoughts?

[mx_tifoso]

Having some sort of GT race alongside F1 would be the best option IMO, as touring cars such as DTM or W/BTCC don't usually run on the same circuits as F1.

The idea of having different cars with different racing lines does sound more feasible than redesigning circuits, as doing so would be a very extreme answer to a not so extreme problem.

The biggest hurdle would be to synchronize multiple series in order to accommodate F1.

[Pandamasque]

BMW M1 Procar anyone?

[mx_tifoso]

Although to be honest I don't think F1 needs a lot more overtaking, the amount that it currently has is almost good enough.

The limited amount of overtaking gives it more value than in other series such as MotoGP or what not.

In general the more there is of some item, in this case overtakings, the less value it has.

[djos]

Forum idea: "almost straight" differential side-slope


You (I mean, not Conceptual, but the other "you") can find some rough numbers about it here that, in principle, prove that the concept could work.

Urrrm, aren't these called progressive banking and already in use at many Oval tracks in the USA?

For those not into NASCAR, basically around each corner the outside lane is banked at a slightly steeper angle than the inside lane.

Here is a really good explanation of Oval tracks and why they are banked (which directly leads to more overtaking and why they do it): Stock Car Science

Imo the boring bland basically flat tracks from Tilke are the #1 cause of poor racing and lack of overtaking! bank the corners inwards a bit, even without going progressive, and you'll immediately create more opportunites to overtake.

[ISLAMATRON]

BMW M1 Procar anyone?

bout time you had a good idea... I had actually suggested something like this a couple years back where the Manufacterer who won the WCC would provide the cars for the next years 1 make F1 drivers series a la BMW procar.

That alone would have made the manufacterers stay in the sport... imagine all the F1 driver(plus some special invited guests) all battling in a 1 make series. How did Procar die away? It was a fantastic idea.

[Rod_in_Chile]

A question for Ciro and the other number crunchers, has technology such as paddle shift steering wheels and semi automtic gearboxes affected overtaking statistics?

[Rod_in_Chile]

I would think that any production type saloon would give you a wider line...

I don't see a 1500 Kg car with 500Kg of downforce cornering as well as an F1 car, so the line would almost have to push out from the apex I would think...

And if Bridgestone compound-matched the Saloon tyres to the F1 tyres (some synergizing effect of the two types), you could seriously have molecular velcro on this alternate line, thus increasing the cornering power available.

I'm sure that there are a billion details that would need to be considered and worked out, but I am sure that it would be cheaper (and less destructive) than reconfiguring all of the F1 tracks that need help!

Thoughts?

The Australian Grrand Prix is usually run with the V8 Touring Cars as support, though I this year was an exception, if the drivers found it dirty off-line your theory may be sound

[nipo]

We have read enough interviews with drivers who say the first and foremost thing about difficulty in overtaking is to be able to follow the car in front before actually pulling off the manouvre. Then it is about going off-line to actually overtake. I think there's a lot of discussion about how to make it better in both aspects.

What I want to point out, however, is that modern day F1 overtakes mostly at the end of long straights. I am not going to get to the bottom of why this is so. Instead I think new F1 circuits should implement the following (or parts of it) somewhere in the lap:

Tricky section -> long straight -> hard-braking single tight turn -> medium straight

Let me explain.

You want to test driver ability through tricky sections. However a good driver can't do anything behind a slightly poorer driver sticking in front if you don't allow the speed differential to amplify. Hence a long straight immediately following an exit of a tricky section allows a good driver to build up good momentum which would be amplified on the main (long) straight.

F1 cars today are so close sometimes you also need to have a heavy braking zone to give more room for drivers to take risks to gain an advantage. Hence the tight turn after the long straight.

Then we come to the most interesting part. I don't know why but currently a lot of F1 tracks seem to put a chicane after a straight. In my opinion that kills some overtaking. In a single tight turn, if the car behind has better cornering ability, it can pull off a late turn-in move to maximize exit speed (going more outside than usual, and then timing it exactly right to dive into the inside when the car in front is just leaving the apex). If you put a chicane after a straight, the inside and outside swaps and the advantage from that move is gone. I don't know if I have explained myself well enough but not everybody, even in F1, can pull this off successfully and this really separates a good driver from a great one IMO. It also gives a good chance for a car with good cornering but not so much straight-line speed to have a go at the more powerful / less drag cars.

The formula above might not always hold true but you get the feeling - we need to amplify the success of beautiful moves / fast cornering by way of straights. And sometimes that requires more than just one corner-straight pair - you need a carefully designed circuit that will let a small advantage prevail for a reasonable period of time (i.e. if the driver can hang on to it) so that good moves are awarded and mistakes are punished properly.