Red Bull keeps Renault engines 2010

[mx_tifoso]

From Formula1.com

Red Bull Racing have not announced an engine partner yet for 2010. This could be a key issue for you and your championship challenge next season…

Vettel: Yep, and nothing has been decided yet. It is quite difficult to race without an engine - probably we will have pedals, but then I have to rapidly take my fitness to another level!

He's got quite a sense of humour.

[i70q7m7ghw]

If McLaren did buy BMW's engine dept would they then be exempt from the homologation rules until the engine is first raced?

BMW have stated that the Engine division is not for sale as a whole, but that they expect people to be rehoused in BMW itself + other teams.

The answer to that question id say would be yes. Meaning they could make all the improvements they would need un-justified. But something says that they wouldnt as i think what BMW are doing is taking the engine department appart, then putting 20-40% of its staff in its other race engine plants for improvements in those areas. Then i think they rest will be taken into the busom of other teams, one being McLaren.

Personally i think that McLaren will take over a smaller engine company, one that i think they would be intrested in is Zytek, as they are the guys tuning the BMW engines for the new roadcars and they do race engines for ALMS, Euro F3000 and they were the previous supplyer of engines to A1GP before they cars went to Ferarri power. To me it would make sence taking a company such as Zytek over as then McLaren could get access to all their property. And one thing that they do make is LMP chassis, so basically they could become a supplier of LMP chassis to ALMS and then Ron Dennis can have the McLaren name there as well.

http://www.zytekgroup.co.uk/Default.aspx?tid=125

It'd make much more sense for McLaren to buy Ilmor from Mercedes if the McMerc partnership was to end. I guess that that would leave Brawn and other teams hung out to dry unless Merc can build the engines elsewhere.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilmor

[ESPImperium]

If McLaren did buy BMW's engine dept would they then be exempt from the homologation rules until the engine is first raced?

BMW have stated that the Engine division is not for sale as a whole, but that they expect people to be rehoused in BMW itself + other teams.

The answer to that question id say would be yes. Meaning they could make all the improvements they would need un-justified. But something says that they wouldnt as i think what BMW are doing is taking the engine department appart, then putting 20-40% of its staff in its other race engine plants for improvements in those areas. Then i think they rest will be taken into the busom of other teams, one being McLaren.

Personally i think that McLaren will take over a smaller engine company, one that i think they would be intrested in is Zytek, as they are the guys tuning the BMW engines for the new roadcars and they do race engines for ALMS, Euro F3000 and they were the previous supplyer of engines to A1GP before they cars went to Ferarri power. To me it would make sence taking a company such as Zytek over as then McLaren could get access to all their property. And one thing that they do make is LMP chassis, so basically they could become a supplier of LMP chassis to ALMS and then Ron Dennis can have the McLaren name there as well.

http://www.zytekgroup.co.uk/Default.aspx?tid=125

It'd make much more sense for McLaren to buy Ilmor from Mercedes if the McMerc partnership was to end. I guess that that would leave Brawn and other teams hung out to dry unless Merc can build the engines elsewhere.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilmor

Personally, i dont think that Mercedes would allow McLaren to buy the engine facility, and it woulod make more sence for them to buy a company such as Zytek as they would then be able to tune and develop their automotive side as well. Also, McLaren would also be able to have their name in more forms of motorsport as well as just F1, thus competing with Ferarri even more.

And do you think Merceds would like to pass on their intelectual property (designs) to another company.

[i70q7m7ghw]

It'd make much more sense for McLaren to buy Ilmor from Mercedes if the McMerc partnership was to end. I guess that that would leave Brawn and other teams hung out to dry unless Merc can build the engines elsewhere.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilmor

Personally, i dont think that Mercedes would allow McLaren to buy the engine facility, and it woulod make more sence for them to buy a company such as Zytek as they would then be able to tune and develop their automotive side as well. Also, McLaren would also be able to have their name in more forms of motorsport as well as just F1, thus competing with Ferarri even more.

And do you think Merceds would like to pass on their intelectual property (designs) to another company.

I never said Merc would hand over intelectual property. But hey while McLaren are buying companies they could snap up the Rolls Royce jet engine department and put some of those on their road cars as well.

This is all complete speculation, and the chances of any of it happening any time soon are very slim.

I expect Merc to possibly announce some sort of share in Brawn, and possibly the sale of McLaren shares back to Ron. I can't see anything changing beyond that.

With the engine freeze it wouldn't hurt McLaren as much if Mercedes snuggled up close with Brawn, they could remain an engine customer.

[WhiteBlue]

NO “EQUALISING” OF ENGINES FOR 2010
Posted on | January 16, 2010 | by James Allen | 29 Comments
There will be no re-tuning of the engines competing in Formula 1 this season, after extensive discussions on ways of equalising engines drew a blank.

The Mercedes, Ferrari and Renault engines will all be as they were in 2009. The V8 engines in use in F1 at the moment are all frozen in specification, with no performance developments allowed. However manufacturers are allowed to request changes in the interests of reliability.
In that process, some changes were made which definitely improved performance, so by the end of 2008 there was quite a difference in performance between the best and worst performing engines.
The FIA ruled that Renault, which had been left behind, would be allowed to retune its engine to bring it up to the level of the others.
This season the same thing happened again. According to analysis we ran on this site in November, the spread of engine power from the best to the worst engines this year was around 2.5%. This means that, if the Mercedes is believed to have had 755hp, the least powerful engine was 18hp down, which is worth just under 3/10ths of a second per lap.
This time the FIA proposed that if the teams were unhappy then they should sort it out themselves, but it could only be on the basis of the best engine being detuned. Mercedes were very unhappy with this and there was some scepticism about the whether the Renault was as down on power as it was being suggested, especially as Red Bull won six races. After extensive discussions got nowhere, the FIA is believed to have ruled that the engines will stay as they are with no re-tuning.
It is worth remembering that “equivalence” isn’t actully required in the rules, just no performance development. So getting exactly equal engines is not something the FIA has to be seen to pursue.
Red Bull were keen on a move to Mercedes power for 2010, but met with resistance from McLaren and Brawn and also from powerful voices within Red Bull itself. So they will remain with Renault. But this is no bad thing; it is worth remembering that they won the last three races of last season, so the engine clearly wasn’t struggling.
And perhaps more important, performance isn’t going to be the holy grail in races this season; fuel efficiency is, due to the new rule outlawing refuelling. The Renault is the most fuel efficient engine in the field, so the Red Bull team can budget for a smaller fuel tank, which improves weight distribution and aerodynamics and they will carry a lighter fuel load at the start of the race. Every 3 kilos of fuel they carry less than their rivals will help them by a tenth of a second per lap. That could be decisive this year.
Adrian Newey said today that McLaren and Brawn blocked RBR from having the Mercedes engines. The team also evaluated Cosworth. But I have a feeling that they will do just fine with the Renault this year.
This story has been written in response to a number of questions posted on the site by readers wanting to know what’s going on with equalising engines. Thanks to them for suggesting it.

This is actually good news for F1. Now the equalization will not only be avoided in power delivery but also in fuel consumption. It will favour Red Bull, Mercedes and McLaren. Renault had the best fuel consumption but also the worst power. Mercedes had best power and second best fuel consumption. Ferrari had second best power and worst fuel consumption in 2009. So the looser of this failure to agree on equalization is clearly Ferrari while Mercedes and Red Bull will have to wait and see what is more important to have in 2010.

[ISLAMATRON]

Thankfully Luca(& Horner) did not get their way, clearly those were the major players trying to "equalise" the engines closer to the levels of their own inferior engines. MAx did a good job in allowing changes only to be made if the top engines would be de-tuned, he understood that the teams would never agree, and Merc did right to not do so.

[PlatinumZealot]

WB, you forget the BMW engine; in that same analysis they said the BMW was the most powerful, then Merc then Ferrari then Renault then Toyota.

As far out as it seems I really want a BMW engine on the track for next year. I just hope the "BMW" was left in the Sauber team name because Sauber is canceling Ferrari and switching back to BMW engines [-o<

[WhiteBlue]

WB, you forget the BMW engine; in that same analysis they said the BMW was the most powerful, then Merc then Ferrari then Renault then Toyota.

As far out as it seems I really want a BMW engine on the track for next year. I just hope the "BMW" was left in the Sauber team name because Sauber is canceling Ferrari and switching back to BMW engines [-o<

No way, BMW are out of this for good.

If people knew how to read this news the odds would seriously change. Vettel will come down and Alonso will go up considearbly. I don't beleive though that anybody understands the significance of it outside some tech boards.

[rwadesmith]

They had very little option in the end. It was either stick with the Renault or move to Cosworth power. Unlike the Renault unit the Cosworth hasn't had any of the changes geared towards increasing reliability since 2006. This coupled with the fact that each engine has to go further than they did in 2006 we are likely to see Cosworths failing left, right and center by the mid-season.
So this meant that Red Bull had a choice, either go with a unit that isn't the best but know and will be able to manage or a unknown quantity.
This made the Renault engine the logical choice.

[Confused_Andy]

They had very little option in the end. It was either stick with the Renault or move to Cosworth power. Unlike the Renault unit the Cosworth hasn't had any of the changes geared towards increasing reliability since 2006. This coupled with the fact that each engine has to go further than they did in 2006 we are likely to see Cosworths failing left, right and center by the mid-season.
So this meant that Red Bull had a choice, either go with a unit that isn't the best but know and will be able to manage or a unknown quantity.
This made the Renault engine the logical choice.

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight, you keep thinking that.

[rwadesmith]

Yes, but if you may remember the Renault engines inside the Renaults of last year did not fail once. That means the problem may not be entirely with the Renault unit but either how it was installed in the red Bull or how the team managed their engines.
But having said that I have to agree the Renault unit is by far the worst on the grid last year but my only point is that it may not turn out to be as bad as the Cosworth.

[Giblet]

Flavio is a proven cheater, and Renault engines only blew up for RBR.

Cause and effect are not always related I guess, but now that we know that Flav is capable of anything, the two could very possibly be.

[ringo]

What were the precise issues with the renault engines?
I think it was more gearbox problems IIRC. I haven't really seen an engine grenade last year besides the BMW with the pneumatic issues.

[Rob W]

...In that case Ron and Mansour will probably have no control over the sale of the Merc shares. A new and unfriendly majority owner with a different strategic direction...

Their shareholding arrangement would, without any doubt, include the absolute rights for the original McLaren share-owners to buy back any shares in the event of the partners wanting to split.

McLaren have bought most of the Mercedes-owned shares back.

http://www.planet-f1.com/news/3213/6037 ... c-s-shares

Is this the slow but sure start of any increasing ill-views of each other?

[raceman]

...In that case Ron and Mansour will probably have no control over the sale of the Merc shares. A new and unfriendly majority owner with a different strategic direction...

Their shareholding arrangement would, without any doubt, include the absolute rights for the original McLaren share-owners to buy back any shares in the event of the partners wanting to split.

McLaren have bought most of the Mercedes-owned shares back.

http://www.planet-f1.com/news/3213/6037 ... c-s-shares

Is this the slow but sure start of any increasing ill-views of each other?

geez, is this the right thread for this discussion??