How does a Frisbee work?

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Ciro Pabón
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Joined: 11 May 2005, 00:31

How does a Frisbee work?

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No more how a dimpled ball works... ;) Let's change the subject.

Simple: how does a Frisbee works? The simple explanation I find by typing the innocent phrase "How does a Frisbee works" says that the air on top moves faster than the air below the contraption. Don't bother to go to Wikipedia, the knowledge of how a disc rotates faster on top than below is still under cover.

Let me raise my humble objections to this (for the novice) ridiculous explanation, knowing in advance they will be crushed by the unsurmountable power of this humble and wise forum (may the gods of electronics keep Tomba away from harm!):

I fail to see why this rotation theory could work. Simple: the air on top and the air below rotate at the same speed relative to the disk. I'm tempted to add the word "duh", like in "duh! the disc is solid, for the love of Pete! How are you saying to me that it rotates faster on the top? Are you out of your mind, dear physicist?".

The explanation also talk about angle of attack. As the Frisbee profile is symmetrical, I also find this explanation unconvincing. There is no wing profile at work. If you take a flat plate, the size of a Frisbee, and throw it in the same "angle of attack", to test this theory, you'll convince yourself that this kind of non-aerodynamical drag cannot make a Frisbee to "float" the way it does.

A chopper, more complicated as it can be, is very "understandable" for a person like me: you have a wing and the wing rotates, period. In the end, I have not the same level of respect for Mr. Igor Sykorsky as the one I'm quickly developing for the Wham-O Toy Company, be his corporate soul blessed.

Could this be connected somehow to Area 51? The Frisbee was invented in 1947, Rosswell happened in 1947, then the rotating disk aeronautical craze began. Coincidence? I don't think so.

Some people will say: "UFOs, Ciro? Oh, c'mon, have you lost it? What about clay shooting targets? Surely they precede Wham-O and Rosswell... And what about the Frisbie pie platters?". Yeah, keep dreaming: as if they didn't meddle with history and with your own minds!

So, rotating air or alien invention?

What's the story on the aerodynamics of Frisbees? If you can understand how a sidepod works, the regulations about safety cars and the financial history of Bernard Ecclestone, surely you can solve this enigma.

For example, I also find that " The outer third of the Frisbie disc is called the 'Morrison Slope', listed in the patent".

So, oh, please, illustrious aerodynamicists extraordinaire, lighthouses of knowledge, vast abysses of understanding, will you englighten this little grasshopper? Is there any alien in this forum, besides me, that can give us a simple explanation (you, know, for Earthlings, wink, wink).
Ciro

Carlos
Carlos
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Re: How does a frisbee works?

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IMO the frisbee is very much like a wing. It only 'flies' when it is thrown at a tilt, establishing a profile very much like a conventional wing profile, the rotation provides a gyroscopic stablizing effect.

EDITED: For Taste and Quality

Shrek
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Re: How does a frisbee works?

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i always thought that it makes a high pressure area beneath it(because its slowing the air down)when it goes down.
Spencer

Giblet
Giblet
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Joined: 19 Mar 2007, 01:47
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Re: How does a frisbee works?

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I am not an aero guy, but, I think the spinning would effect the boundary layer somewhat on top, and cause the air to take a less direct path across the top, effectively slowing it down.

A dinner plate is flatter in profle. Frisbees are designed to direct more air over top, than underneath. They either have a flat side, or a rounded roll. A dinner plate is also made out of heavy porcelin, not lightweight plastic. If you threw it underwater you might be able to observe a little more.

The air underneath is contained in a pocket for the most part. Now being a non aero person, I can only observe, and this is what I observe.

I also observed most quality Frisbees have a series of raised concentric rings on top, maybe for grip, or maybe not.

The Aerobie makes them look a little silly anyway :)

Image
Before I do anything I ask myself “Would an idiot do that?” And if the answer is yes, I do not do that thing. - Dwight Schrute

woohoo
woohoo
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Joined: 10 Aug 2008, 01:12

Re: How does a frisbee works?

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It flies like people said, because of the difference in pressure.

But it needs to spin in order to keep it stable and prevent stall. Otherwise it would just bend over and fall down :)
The only way to close a stupid question is to give a smart answer

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Fil
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Joined: 15 Jan 2007, 14:54
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Re: How does a frisbee works?

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woohoo wrote:But it needs to spin in order to keep it stable..
The centrifugal force of a horizontal gyroscopic motion.. :wtf:

bsically the forces that balance a spinning object in motion.. like a motorbike's wheels, but horizontally!

:shock:
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Ciro Pabón
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Joined: 11 May 2005, 00:31

Re: How does a frisbee works?

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Well, thanks to all of you for your efforts. The fact that it has to be a pressure difference is implied by the way the Frisbee flies, but, by the life of me, no explanation in this page is convincing (or even credible).

Notice that the speed of air is the same on top as below, I repeat (patiently, if I may add).

A wing works because the upper surface is longer than the lower surface, isn't it? How can you do this with a rotating disk? The Morrison slope, which nobody mentions, must be the answer.

Let's state the problem with a different style: design a shape for a rotating surface in such a way that the upper surface offers a longer path to the air than the lower one.

Notice that this has to be valid for the whole surface, not just for a part of it: thus, the total area of the disk on top must be larger than the area of the disk below, as far as my limited knowledge goes.

However, the Frisbee has no simple shape. It has a stepped outer edge. Why?

I also think that something interesting must be implied in the point raised by Giblet, about the air being contained by the outer lip of the Frisbee, while the air on top moves "out" by Coriolis effect (I imagine). Given the shape of the lip, the net effect would be to expel the air downwards.

I have no idea if this is how it works. Let's hope some lazy aerodynamicist, with some time in his hands, gives us the straight dope (hopefully, with a drawing).
Ciro

Carlos
Carlos
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Re: How does a frisbee works?

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The Web contains all answers:
THE FLOW OVER A ROTATING DISC-WING
Jonathan R. Potts & William J. Crowther
Fluid Mechanics Research Group, School of Engineering, University of Manchester, UK
14pages
http://www.ipp.mpg.de/~rfs/comas/lectur ... Cpaper.pdf

Caito
Caito
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Re: How does a frisbee works?

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Ciro Pabón wrote: A wing works because the upper surface is longer than the lower surface, isn't it? How can you do this with a rotating disk? The Morrison slope, which nobody mentions, must be the answer.
It doesn't have to be longer. A simple plane wood would generate lift if given angle of attack. Get your car(and other to drive), get a piece of wood, open your window, stretch the wooden piece and try different angles of attack. You shall see how it generates lift.

Symmetric wing profiles as those in acrobatic airplanes also generate lift( due to angle of attack) and they are symmetric.

Great book about basic wing theory without math implied is "understanding flight". A wing generates lift because it diverts air downards (in so called downwash) by newton's 3rd law, the wing gets a lifting force. Why these occurs involves coanda effect + bernoulli + etc.

There are lots of wing graphics which show air coming out horizontally, there would be no lift then.



About frisbees, I was told the curious trajectory was due to the conservation of angular momentum.

"Spinning the Frisbee when it is thrown, or giving it angular momentum (gyroscopic inertia), provides it with stability. Angular momentum is a property of any spinning mass. Throwing a Frisbee without any spin allows it to tumble to the ground. The momentum of the spin also gives it orientational stability, allowing the Frisbee to receive a steady lift from the air as it passes through it. The faster the Frisbee spins, the greater its stability."
From: http://www.mansfieldct.org/schools/MMS/ ... risbee.htm
"An additional consequence of the conservation of angular momentum is that the rotation axis of a spinning object will tend to keep a constant orientation. For example, a spinning Frisbee thrown horizontally will tend to keep its horizontal orientation even if tapped from below. To test this, try throwing a Frisbee without spin and see how unstable it is. A spinning top remains vertical as long as it keeps spinning fast enough. Earth itself maintains a constant orientation of its spin axis due to the conservation of angular momentum."
So. A frisbee is a rotating lift device(how sophisticated).

If you throw it straight (without spin) it will tend to lift but it will be very unstable. So it will twist until it loses its angle of attack. So you spin it to give the frisbee certain stability. That's how I see it.
Image




Bye bye!

Caito.-
Come back 747, we miss you!!

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ringo
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Joined: 29 Mar 2009, 10:57

Re: How does a Frisbee work?

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Another important thing to note is the leading edge radius; that could also be the thing that makes it different than a plank or wood or dinner plate.
The edge radius allows it to have a change in angle of attack without stalling.
An arbitrary plate or plank may stall at a certain anlge of attack, or flip over because of the sharp edge radius.
For Sure!!

Giblet
Giblet
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Joined: 19 Mar 2007, 01:47
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Re: How does a Frisbee work?

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Nice answer Caito.

Can we keep you? ;)
Before I do anything I ask myself “Would an idiot do that?” And if the answer is yes, I do not do that thing. - Dwight Schrute

autogyro
autogyro
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Joined: 04 Oct 2009, 15:03

Re: How does a Frisbee work?

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Giblet wrote:Nice answer Caito.

Can we keep you? ;)
Please keep going, it is fascinating. Thanks Ciro.
Let me know when you reach 'how an autogyro flys'.
I have just moved some rotor blade jigs to a knew factory, where they will be made.
How the 'teeter' bearings in the rotor head work may help with your frisbee ideas.
Nothing like a boring helicopter with a powered rotor of course.

Scotracer
Scotracer
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Joined: 22 Apr 2008, 17:09
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland, UK

Re: How does a frisbee works?

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Giblet wrote:I am not an aero guy, but, I think the spinning would effect the boundary layer somewhat on top, and cause the air to take a less direct path across the top, effectively slowing it down.

A dinner plate is flatter in profle. Frisbees are designed to direct more air over top, than underneath. They either have a flat side, or a rounded roll. A dinner plate is also made out of heavy porcelin, not lightweight plastic. If you threw it underwater you might be able to observe a little more.

The air underneath is contained in a pocket for the most part. Now being a non aero person, I can only observe, and this is what I observe.

I also observed most quality Frisbees have a series of raised concentric rings on top, maybe for grip, or maybe not.

The Aerobie makes them look a little silly anyway :)

Image
You want it to speed up otherwise it would provide a downforce :)
Powertrain Cooling Engineer

Carlos
Carlos
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Joined: 02 Sep 2006, 19:43
Location: Canada

Re: How does a Frisbee work?

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Frisbee inventor Walter Frederick Morrison dies aged 90 Febuary 9th 2010

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8512198.stm

"How would you get through your youth without learning to throw a Frisbee?"