Mclaren Mercedes MP4-25

A place to discuss the characteristics of the cars in Formula One, both current as well as historical. Laptimes, driver worshipping and team chatter do not belong here.
i70q7m7ghw
i70q7m7ghw
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Re: Vodafone Mclaren Mercedes MP4/25

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ringo wrote: Let the conspiracy theories begin. It seems the car was designed with a driver of his height in mind. Button should be able to adjust his seat a little though.
They can most certainly adjust the seat more than enough to put button at the right height. The cars are all very similar in height in this area, it's the seat that sets the position, the car isn't designed around a driver in that exact nature.
wesley123 wrote:Well, you name a new 'problem'

The first problem is that Hamiltons and Buttons driving styles are completely different, not ideal when building a car, therefore it can be hugely possible that two different tubs would be built, just to fit their chrasteristics more.
Aabsolute trash. The car is designed with a neutral balance in mind and they will suite it to each driver using the setup.

segedunum
segedunum
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Re: Vodafone Mclaren Mercedes MP4/25

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Diesel wrote:The cars are all very similar in height in this area, it's the seat that sets the position, the car isn't designed around a driver in that exact nature.
Rubbish. The cars are built with so little space to spare that a driver's size and natural driving position inevitably affects seating and helmet position and cockpit comfort. In Button and Rosberg's cases their head and helmet height and seat position in the cockpit should have been discussed and sorted out weeks ago at the first fitting. It's shocking that it doesn't seem to have been and they have turned up to a test with these problems. There's no reason for it. You can't just mold a seat to a driver's backside and say that it fits.

As someone else has mentioned there is so little space to spare in Newey's Red Bulls that he even designed his cars with a particular helmet manufacturer in mind.
Aabsolute trash. The car is designed with a neutral balance in mind and they will suite it to each driver using the setup.
I'm afraid this 'neutral balance' crap needs to be put to bed, and it's quite clearly something that's bandied around by many engineers who have never driven a car in their life and who think drivers are interchangeable cogs. The driver ultimately decides what the car actually does when it's on track.

A driver's style and what a car will allow him to do has a huge influence on how fast the car goes in reality, not on paper, despite there not being much to see either visually or even via telemetry. Slight differences in driving style make a huge difference - many drivers favour a steady in slow and out fast approach to cornering, some drivers prefer to turn in roughly, get the nose in and correct the car constantly and some drivers just take different lines through corners that might only be a matter of inches here and there. That's before you get to throttle and brake balance. It all adds up.

On the other side of the coin sometimes you have cars that are designed heavily around generating aerodynamic grip from the start and moving around very little through corners, and some cars are biased more towards utilising mechanical grip and will allow a driver much more control and movement as to how he goes through a corner. The 2007/2008 McLaren and Ferrari were diametrically opposed in that manner.

Yes, you can play about with setups all you like but if you're trying to get a setup where you are trying to dial out and minimise the natural tendencies and philosophy with which the car is built then you are on to a loser straight away, especially with how complex and finely tuned today's modern cars are. Saying that driving style doesn't matter goes against everything we've seen over the past few seasons.

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WhiteBlue
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Re: Vodafone Mclaren Mercedes MP4/25

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One of the advantages of a driver long established with his team and used to being the lead driver is the gearing of all engineering choices towards his preferences. If you then have climbed to the lofty heights of the Ferrari dream team you can even select the other driver to fit the the incumbent's style so that both drivers will be able to use very similar set ups, if you want. McLaren don't seem to be sold on the concept or they would have found another driver to fit with Hamilton.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

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ISLAMATRON
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Re: Vodafone Mclaren Mercedes MP4/25

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Image
http://twitpic.com/10u7cr/full

cant show the pic... but anyone got an idea as to what is in the hump just above the V in Vodafone?

can anyone post the pic for me

imightbewrong
imightbewrong
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Re: Vodafone Mclaren Mercedes MP4/25

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ISLAMATRON wrote:Image
http://twitpic.com/10u7cr/full

cant show the pic... but anyone got an idea as to what is in the hump just above the V in Vodafone?

can anyone post the pic for me
Image

timbo
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Re: Vodafone Mclaren Mercedes MP4/25

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ISLAMATRON wrote:cant show the pic... but anyone got an idea as to what is in the hump just above the V in Vodafone?
Exhaust manifold?

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ISLAMATRON
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Re: Vodafone Mclaren Mercedes MP4/25

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timbo wrote:
ISLAMATRON wrote:cant show the pic... but anyone got an idea as to what is in the hump just above the V in Vodafone?
Exhaust manifold?
My thought too... but not a very elegant solution... everything on that car looks right, except for that etrrible hump... cant wait to get a peek under that bodywork.

thanks for posting the pic... its a scarbs pic just so everyone knows

i70q7m7ghw
i70q7m7ghw
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Re: Vodafone Mclaren Mercedes MP4/25

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segedunum wrote:
Diesel wrote:The cars are all very similar in height in this area, it's the seat that sets the position, the car isn't designed around a driver in that exact nature.
Rubbish. The cars are built with so little space to spare that a driver's size and natural driving position inevitably affects seating and helmet position and cockpit comfort. In Button and Rosberg's cases their head and helmet height and seat position in the cockpit should have been discussed and sorted out weeks ago at the first fitting. It's shocking that it doesn't seem to have been and they have turned up to a test with these problems. There's no reason for it. You can't just mold a seat to a driver's backside and say that it fits.

As someone else has mentioned there is so little space to spare in Newey's Red Bulls that he even designed his cars with a particular helmet manufacturer in mind.
Aabsolute trash. The car is designed with a neutral balance in mind and they will suite it to each driver using the setup.
I'm afraid this 'neutral balance' crap needs to be put to bed, and it's quite clearly something that's bandied around by many engineers who have never driven a car in their life and who think drivers are interchangeable cogs. The driver ultimately decides what the car actually does when it's on track.

A driver's style and what a car will allow him to do has a huge influence on how fast the car goes in reality, not on paper, despite there not being much to see either visually or even via telemetry. Slight differences in driving style make a huge difference - many drivers favour a steady in slow and out fast approach to cornering, some drivers prefer to turn in roughly, get the nose in and correct the car constantly and some drivers just take different lines through corners that might only be a matter of inches here and there. That's before you get to throttle and brake balance. It all adds up.

On the other side of the coin sometimes you have cars that are designed heavily around generating aerodynamic grip from the start and moving around very little through corners, and some cars are biased more towards utilising mechanical grip and will allow a driver much more control and movement as to how he goes through a corner. The 2007/2008 McLaren and Ferrari were diametrically opposed in that manner.

Yes, you can play about with setups all you like but if you're trying to get a setup where you are trying to dial out and minimise the natural tendencies and philosophy with which the car is built then you are on to a loser straight away, especially with how complex and finely tuned today's modern cars are. Saying that driving style doesn't matter goes against everything we've seen over the past few seasons.
I appreciate what you are saying. I wasn't talking balance quite on that level. I was talking more about how for example Lewis is said to like an oversteering car more than an understeering car and the opposite can be said for Jenson. Are you saying the team would build an oversteering car on purpose?

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ringo
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Re: Vodafone Mclaren Mercedes MP4/25

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Diesel is correct. The car is not designed for a driver style, that's like saying an f22 raptor was designed for an individual pilot's flying style.
This was discussed already and i think we came to the conclusion that a driver's style does not influence the design process of the car. A driver's style is not something quantifiable, so it cannot be a parameter for actually building the car from scratch.
What i do agree on is that a driver can influence the ergonomics, which are adjustable anyway.

Secondly Button's height has nothing to do with his driving style, so it's difficult to link that with Mclaren designing the car for a "driving style". Him not fitting in the car comfortably is not related to the car's stability or handling characteristics. :lol:

The car is designed neutral, similar to a fighter plane. The tub is a rigid part, so that cannot change, all other adjustments away from neutrality come from the suspension, ballast and wings alone. All these are no trouble to customize for different driver needs, but again inherently the car is made neutral.
For Sure!!

Giblet
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Re: Vodafone Mclaren Mercedes MP4/25

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The car was designed and partially built before Button was even a twinkle in Whitmarsh's eye.

It was decided, and confirmed by some of the guys in F1 on this site, that a car is designed to be neutral at first, as that allows confidence to explore the extreme ranges of the setup options available.

Wurz had some of the same issues, but he is even taller than Button, and he was already on the team at that point, so if it was true the car was custom tailored like a tuxedo, they would not have had to cut a gunnel to accommodate his long legs.

Much like flying coach, it might not be the most comfortable, but it will do the job for the limited time in the seat.
Before I do anything I ask myself “Would an idiot do that?” And if the answer is yes, I do not do that thing. - Dwight Schrute

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Callum
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Re: Vodafone Mclaren Mercedes MP4/25

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Was there ever a decision made about whether or not the fin is connected to the rear wing in a special way??

I havn't read anything about it in the media if its true.

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tk421
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Joined: 12 Jan 2009, 21:34

Re: Vodafone Mclaren Mercedes MP4/25

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is there any difference in the flow of the exhaust when it exits a pipe that's cut on a bias like the mclaren vs a pipe that's cut straight across like the ferrari?
Best regards. I guess this explains why I'm not at my post!

Pup
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Re: Vodafone Mclaren Mercedes MP4/25

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Callum wrote:Was there ever a decision made about whether or not the fin is connected to the rear wing in a special way??

I havn't read anything about it in the media if its true.
They all follow Scarbs, and he's too busy taking pictures of diffusers to notice anything else. :wink:

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De Jokke
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Joined: 30 Mar 2009, 02:51

Re: Vodafone Mclaren Mercedes MP4/25

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imightbewrong wrote:
ISLAMATRON wrote:Image
http://twitpic.com/10u7cr/full

cant show the pic... but anyone got an idea as to what is in the hump just above the V in Vodafone?

can anyone post the pic for me
Image
It's not new compared to launch + valencia, that "hump" above the V(odafone).
http://f1.gpupdate.net/nl/photolarge.ph ... catID=4673
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outer_bongolia
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Re: Vodafone Mclaren Mercedes MP4/25

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I didn't have too much time to check the older posts, but I was wondering whether anyone discussed the little hole on the base plate that was not open all the way to the ground. Or am I seeing something wrong?
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