What will come after the 2.4 V8?

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
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flynfrog
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Re: Sensible ideas for what will happen after the 2.4 V8?

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Giblet wrote:How about solid fuel rocket 'commitment' engines mounted on the (beefed up) rear wing?
that would make for some great games of chicken on the last lap. =D>

autogyro
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Re: Sensible ideas for what will happen after the 2.4 V8?

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"You are wrong on the chamber pressure its no different than a 4 stroke with a high overlap cam. It explains why I have to use 110 octane lead fuels. Its also why the AMA outlawed leaded fuels so they could keep the 3 year old two stroke bikes from beating honda newest 4 stroke time bomb"

I am not wrong.A two stroke can have the compression ratio increased by reducing the chamber volume to almost nothing. However to actually increase the charge pressure there has to be a compromise made to the scavenging of the exhaust gas. This is the reason for a need for increased octane fuel and not just a compression ratio increase. The actual chamber pressure possible in a four stroke cannot be reached. To make sure the dirty charge is fully burnt modern two strokes use high spec materials to run at very high temperatures. (this cannot be done in a rotary, which was my point on turbo generators for energy recovery).

"yes you can super charge 2 strokes GMC had the super charged and turbo-ed 2 stroke semi engines. These engines were pretty reliable in there day less moving parts ect. than there 4 stroke counter parts not to mentions twice as many power cycles per rev".

GMC's two stroke super/turbo charged two strokes were reliable yes but 'not fuel efficient' or clean running and very heavy. Twice as many poor power strokes per cycle.

"Maybe you missed the part where the Abrams has 1500 hp and a bazillion ftlbs of torque so it might take a little more fuel than a prius. And who said you need on that big with electic coupling you could down size your turbine quite a bit and make up the rest with a battery reserve. You could then run the turbine at max load and peak effectiveness".

How could anyone miss that American overkill the Abrahams. I have worked with the most powerful British post WW2 fighter aircraft with 2800hp, so the American stuff is of little interest to me. The Abrahams has little purpose in world conflict today. It can certainly win anywhere but never has any chance of helping consolidate these American asset stripping invasions, much like their other military over kill. I look forward to your attempts to build a turbo drive system for a performance vehicle. I think we will have a long wait.

"You are also wrong on the corner part. The Granitlli(sp?) turbines should have won Indy I believe it broke the rear end with only a few laps to go with a multiple lap lead".

American oval racing, although interesting, is hardly going around corners is it. This is why the Americans have never come to terms with F1.

"We all know that in boats engines are often the cause of fatalities. Your success must have been great since you are cranking out boat engines left and right unlike mercury".

My friend was killed avoiding another driver who's boat had flipped. He hit a harbor wall. It had nothing to do with the engine, either mine or the superb two strokes supplied by Mercury.

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JKrych
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Re: Sensible ideas for what will happen after the 2.4 V8?

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"American oval racing, although interesting, is hardly going around corners is it. This is why the Americans have never come to terms with F1" - i didnt realize oval racing was "american" - I happen to be american, and a also happen to "come to grips" with F1.

first off, the green discussion needs to be eliminated. this is racing for entertainment, not solving world hunger, so untill countries would like to apply stringent green rules on the everyday operations, then and only then should F1 stand to see a few. after all, we all know the power vs fuel consumption is already fantastic. the only rules F1 engines should have would be limited IC forced induction, weight of fuel carried, and weight of powerplant. I think KERS is an interesting concept, but passing should be left to the skill of the driver. In this type of rule set, there would be no limitation on displacement, engine type, or fuel type used, and a prevention of high boost low disp engines. although, number of engines available for race season should also be applied, to limit rpm's and put more of an edge twords durability.

Giblet
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Re: Sensible ideas for what will happen after the 2.4 V8?

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JKrych wrote:"American oval racing, although interesting, is hardly going around corners is it. This is why the Americans have never come to terms with F1" - i didnt realize oval racing was "american" - I happen to be american, and a also happen to "come to grips" with F1.

first off, the green discussion needs to be eliminated. this is racing for entertainment, not solving world hunger, so untill countries would like to apply stringent green rules on the everyday operations, then and only then should F1 stand to see a few. after all, we all know the power vs fuel consumption is already fantastic. the only rules F1 engines should have would be limited IC forced induction, weight of fuel carried, and weight of powerplant. I think KERS is an interesting concept, but passing should be left to the skill of the driver. In this type of rule set, there would be no limitation on displacement, engine type, or fuel type used, and a prevention of high boost low disp engines. although, number of engines available for race season should also be applied, to limit rpm's and put more of an edge twords durability.
I don't see why just because they are racing, they get to be able to do whatever they want and not be a responsible steward for the planet. Every person, whether they like or not, has a responsibility to at least try to make less of an impact on the Earth. By that logic, I can do whatever I want as well, with no guilt? At the very least trim the excess fat.

The only problem with a near unlimited series like you suggest is cost, which is a current bugbear in formula1. A team could spend millions developing an engine, only to have to scrap it the next year to copy the better design. The team that comes up with best design has to pour even more money just to stay ahead. We can't keep teams pushing he high limits of budgets, as another economic downturn will eventually happen, and we will lost more teams.

the energy a team can burn in a gp weekend needs to be limited, not given carte blanch to make their engine from unobtanium and lubricated with unicorn blood.

But I do agree that being green should not be a primary focus, but it needs to be a focus nonetheless.
Before I do anything I ask myself “Would an idiot do that?” And if the answer is yes, I do not do that thing. - Dwight Schrute

JKrych
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Re: Sensible ideas for what will happen after the 2.4 V8?

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interesting point- and the teams that have bigger budgets will have an advantage over the "lesser" teams...

theactorkevineldon
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Re: Sensible ideas for what will happen after the 2.4 V8?

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OK chaps I'm a newbie here and I certainly defer to the wealth of knowledge on this forum, but how about this for a compromise.

1500cc 5 cylinders
Supercharged (ie mechanically driven forced induction)
No pneumatic/desmo/electronically operated valve train
Maximum 150 litres of fuel for race.

In simple terms it's half a 3.0 V10, and on the basis of what was acheivable 25 years ago with 1500cc 4 cyl turbo it should give a reasonable ouput.
I should think the valve train limitations and those of a mechanical supercharger ought to keep power,revs and therefore engine life within sensible limits.

I personally can't get onboard with a 4 cyl engine in F1. Of course we had them before, but for me they are too ordinary and the exhaust note doesn't cut it.
I would have thought a 5 cyl running at say 12000 RPM acompanied by a shreiking supercharger would fit the bill.

Plus it would be interesting to see whether manufacturers would use an inline or V5 configuration.

allstaruk08
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Re: Sensible ideas for what will happen after the 2.4 V8?

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1.6 v6 turbos 18000RPM limit with variable boost control allowed to increase power for 6 seconds a lap (cheap KERS) and ALS. imagine the sound of an 18000RPM engine decresing revs and the popping and banging of the ALS going crazy lol

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Holm86
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Re: Sensible ideas for what will happen after the 2.4 V8?

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1.2 liter V6 twin turbo engine with max boost preassure of 1bar. The engines should have FIA Spec Wastegate to ensure the 1bar maximum.

(The 1 bar preassure makes it equal to a 2.4 liter N/A engine wich is the displacement of current V8's)

Then the engine should be direct injected and run on ethanol.

double clutch gearboxes should be legal as it would be great to develop them in F1 because it is widely used in roadcars today.


I don't think VVT or VTEC alike systems would be of any use in F1 because F1 engines run at a very narrow revband anyways.

countersteer
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Re: Sensible ideas for what will happen after the 2.4 V8?

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Limit power with rpm limits, not by clinging to outdated technology. (and, if boosted, boost pressure) Pneumatic, electronic, or desmodromic valvetrains should be encouraged as the reliability they produce provides for much reduced costs.

or so says Smokey Yunick...

That is, unless you want to limit rpm to a point where valve springs are stone cold reliable....

Just my $0.02

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Holm86
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Re: Sensible ideas for what will happen after the 2.4 V8?

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would direct injection engines have to have a rev limit??

arent they limited to around 10.000 rpms???

long time ago i read about porsches le mans LMP2 racer wich has a direct injection engine and the biggest problem was to make a direct injection system that could rev to those 10.000-12.000rpm's of this engine.

i know this would only be a matter of time before the development would make these engines able to run at higher rpm's but i think it would take a coulpe of years before they hit 19-20.000rpm's .....

Giblet
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Re: Sensible ideas for what will happen after the 2.4 V8?

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They should open up the drive train to spherical valves as well, eliminating the problems with springs at high revs.

I don't know too much about the tech, but from what I have read, it seems to be able to run just about any speed, and have a lot less parts.

Hmmm.. on a better read about them, seems to be a bunch of issues, especially with forced induction.
Before I do anything I ask myself “Would an idiot do that?” And if the answer is yes, I do not do that thing. - Dwight Schrute

manchild
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Re: Sensible ideas for what will happen after the 2.4 V8?

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Giblet wrote:They should open up the drive train to spherical valves as well, eliminating the problems with springs at high revs.

I don't know too much about the tech, but from what I have read, it seems to be able to run just about any speed, and have a lot less parts.
Only theoretically, since they'd be in f1 already to replace pneumatic springs, which have already shown ability to rev over 21.000 rpm.

I'd say "V8 cut in 2 turbo".

4 in-line 1.2 liter turbo with obligatory KERS, only not to be used as booster, but to automatically and constantly help the IC engine. Add to that some engine heat recovery system TERS (Thermal Energy Recovery System) to additionally fill KERS' battery with some juice.

autogyro
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Re: Sensible ideas for what will happen after the 2.4 V8?

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If you are going the reduced capacity route, why not go rotary with exhaust turbo generator.
No reciprocation, no valves and far fewer moving parts.

Edis
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Re: Sensible ideas for what will happen after the 2.4 V8?

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autogyro wrote:If you are going the reduced capacity route, why not go rotary with exhaust turbo generator.
No reciprocation, no valves and far fewer moving parts.
Why? Do we want a higher fuel consumption? What about no relation with current roadcars? Not to mention that the rotary engine actually has a very high displacement. The reason rotaries produce very high hp/l is because they are usually rated with the wrong displacement. The common 1.3 liter Mazda rotary actually has a displacement of 3.9 litres, but had Mazda called it a 3.9 litre engine it had suffered because of the japanese tax for engines above 2 litres.

Had we only cared about few moving parts we would have used the two stroke instead!

Something along the line of a half current V8 should be reasonable, perhaps a little smaller, 1 litre or so and a reduced maximum speed to around 13,000 rpm. Then pneumatic valve springs shouldn't be required, and it should be possible to use direct injection with reasonable injection pressures aswell as camless engines. Boost pressure unlimited, but with restrictions on fuel flow, fuel consumption and perhaps also compressor wheel diameter.
Giblet wrote:They should open up the drive train to spherical valves as well, eliminating the problems with springs at high revs.

I don't know too much about the tech, but from what I have read, it seems to be able to run just about any speed, and have a lot less parts.

Hmmm.. on a better read about them, seems to be a bunch of issues, especially with forced induction.
So far no one has been able to show a successful rotary valve engine, to seal them from the combustion chamber pressure has been shown to be difficult while the poppet valve seals itself due to the combustion pressure. Rotary valves can't run at any speed, aside from the bottom end limits, they will be limited by port area and air velocity in the inlet ports. Current racing engines have a port area of approx. 1/3 of the bore area, and this restrict the engines to approx. 25 m/s mean piston velocity. To be able to use higher revs with maintained stroke, the port area in relation to the bore area must be increased.

Rotary valves are also more difficult to control in terms of variable valve timing. Today many roadcar engines are already equipped with variable cam phasing and the next step is to make variable valve lift and variable valve duration more common. With control over lift, duration and phasing we can get rid of the throttle plate and control the torque output with late or early valve closing instead; that is the Miller-Atkinson cycle with a much greater expansion ratio in relation to the compression ratio. Basically we could combine the fuel efficiency of a Toyota Prius engine at part load with the output of a racing engine at full load.

autogyro
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Re: Sensible ideas for what will happen after the 2.4 V8?

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Can you explain to this poor ancient engineer how you measure the 'swept' volume of the Mazda rotary and come up with 3.9 liters.
The rotary IS used in current road cars, it is just that most cars still use 19th century ic technology.
How is a two stroke engine even slightly close to a rotary in minimal moving part? It still wastes power doing a silly dance called reciprocation!

The rotary only uses to much fuel because it burns rich to keep the combustion temperatures down for tip seal reasons, it can burn low octane fuel better because of the spread out flame path. To meet the fueling needs, fit a turbo generator with air fuel injection into the exhaust prior to the turbine. This burns the unburnt fuel and other exhaust gasses at a high enough temperature for fuel efficiency and also recovers energy from the generator.

Oh and before you dimiss rotary valves completely, take a look at the Bristol sleeve valve engine in the sea fury we used to fly. 2800hp, the Napier was also very useful. WW2 vintage of course.