Mercedes GP MGP W01

[F1_eng]

But what you have in your image is complete rubbish, the profiles are horrific and the nose surfacing is also awful, these are very important. What kind of simulation did you run? What were the boundary conditions and domain extent? What viscosity model did you use?

Also, a flat profile is completely different to a symmetic one and it would be a very strage decision to make the chord line of the controlled section parallel to the ground plane.

The difference between external and pipe flow is exactly the boundary conditions, that is the difference between the two concepts.

[ringo]

But what you have in your image is complete rubbish, the profiles are horrific and the nose surfacing is also awful, these are very important. What kind of simulation did you run? What were the boundary conditions and domain extent? What viscosity model did you use?

Also, a flat profile is completely different to a symmetic one and it would be a very strage decision to make the chord line of the controlled section parallel to the ground plane.

I was agreeing with you there. Just clearing it up with the other poster.

The difference between external and pipe flow is exactly the boundary conditions, that is the difference between the two concepts.

Agree here also.

My image is not rubbish, come on man, I made those in one night from various media pictures. I had no dimensions to work with there. It's not like i am being payed here.

Regardless of how dimensionally accurate the nose is, the flow principles still hold to the general shape and you know so.
All i am saying is that under the nose has to be a higher pressure than the tip, which is between the wing strut in the case of the W01.
To be clear, i did not say that the air is being worked on and compressed, or that it will be higher than atmospheric pressure.
What i was saying is that that arch under the nose will not have a reduced pressure under there.

F1eng you should show some of you proof with some of your work. I do engineering as well like most here, I admit that i was not formally taught aerodynamics. I learn in my spare time and am not completely clueless.
Your criticisms are nice and all, but they can't convince me I am wrong since they are not related to the subject; you have to debunk my statements objectively by example.

You should make a similar object, and run it with your software, if it looks different than mine, then i stand corrected.

[F1_eng]

I do this every day, unfortunately I can't post any images or results.

[horse]

I do this every day, unfortunately I can't post any images or results.

Oh dear, please don't, not another Goony.

F1_eng, you must appreciate this place is full of enthusiastic amateurs and talented professionals blowing off steam or endulging a hobby. I personally look at it as a place to learn, as my own work is in a fluid dynamic field (but not at this velocity)



I suppose I'm saying there is no need to be confrontational - I reckon we'd all be interested to read your insight into this area of the cars design. Ringo is just trying out some ideas, after all, and we both know, representative and accurate CFD simulation is not achievable in a day. I think he's made a good start, but may lack the oomph to do a proper simulation with the correct BCs applied.

I, for one, would like to understand what is going on at the front of the car a bit better than I do, particularly with these "kinked" noses, but I'm not sure I understand quite yet from reading the discussion between Ringo and you.

[F1_eng]

And I won't be telling you what is going on directly, what I can do is explain where theories are incorrect and if someone posts something sensible, they deserve to know they are working along the right lines.

May I ask what field of fluid dynamics do you work in?
I currently work at a senior aerodynamic level but in the past I was known for my mechanical and powertrain knowledge, in particular engine development, analysis and simulation. Since engine development has gone a bit dry in F1 at the moment, I decided to migrate.
I am a very strong believer that a very good engineer is an all-round engineer, they should be able to turn their knowledge to anything and everything. Sure people specialise but a deep and true understanding means you can apply theories and recall methods from on branch of engineering and apply them in another. Most engineers are ok, then they are trained "on the job" to do only the things they need to do which are usually pretty simple, especially when the tasks are repetitive.

I needed to express my view, I have been overwhelmed recently with "on the job" engineers and when things don't go to plan they haven't got the slightest idea what to do.

[horse]

May I ask what field of fluid dynamics do you work in?

You'll laugh. I work in academia doing research into marine renewables, particularly tidal turbines. My particular area of interest is free surface interaction, but I'm also a mathematician by degree so I've been more involved in model development (for the time being) than actual results gathering. I'm also gaining a personal interest in the validation and verification process which is why the Virgin team are so interesting to me this year.

I've been diverging into doing CFD for wave devices and it's a not easy. The commercial codes just are not good at dynamic free surface body interactions, or realistic wave simulation. There was just no need for this in the design. The need for good consistent waves also means the domains need to be big (back to BCs) so we're really pushing our facilities. Still we don't have any in-house stuff available either so its a bit of a nightmare really.

I know what you mean about "on the job" engineers. The consultancies in our field are obliged to provide answers when they really don't have a clue. The fact is there are questions that just are not answerable yet, but if someone has given some consultant some cash they tend not to be brave enough to admit that they don't know.

You sound like you have a lot of experience and I think that's what is so interesting about this forum is picking up on other peoples knowledge and experience. You never know, it might be useful to me in my own work (as well as indulging my love of F1, of course).

[PlatinumZealot]

The model can make sense, as a diffuser is a similar principle. It depends on the exiting pressure and the entry pressure as we know.

We have to decide whether we are talking about STATIC pressure or total pressure. I assume we mean static pressure.

Not all widening have pressure drops, pressure can either drop or fall when the shape widens.

Sometimes the STATIC pressure rises when the shape widens like in a diffuser. The gas slows down and the dynamic pressure turns back into static pressure and the static pressure rises to whatever pressure is outside the diffuser.

In a bladed compressor the shape widens and the gas is compressed to higher pressure. Here both the static and dynamic pressure increase. In this, the gas is literally speed up and energized to add dynamic pressure then the gas goes through a widening so it has to slow down (to keep the same mass flow) and some of this dynamic pressure turns to Static pressure. You have to do work to let this happen though. But I think it is possible that some parts of the car can do work on (or add energy) the gasses around it.

The pressure can also drop in F1_eng's case if the gas is simply expanded into an area of lower pressure. So I think he is assuming that there is a lower pressure around those parts of the nose.

So It depends on what is happening around the nose. It could be right that there is a pressure drop; maybe vortices forming from the Gurney flaps along the nose can somehow go under it and help to keep the pressure low somewhat. F1_eng this is what you must show us if it what you were trying to say. You must share knowledge no point in keeping it to your self. It could even be something that we all know already.

[ringo]

F1eng, sounds like you are working with an F1 team or Lockheed Martin.
I don't know what it is that is so holy that you cannot disclose what is happening. I am cool with that, but i am still curious.

If you don't feel like exposing you work, i understand, but it doesn't make believing you any easier. You know those guys with the "end is near" sandwich board signs? See what i am saying?

Anyway, I will just state things that I observe, if it's wrong feel free to jump in.

The nose dive planes are key to the Merc design, obviously. They have some influence on the underside of the nose and above as well.


They create, or maintain the low pressure area behind them, somewhat shielding the underside of the nose from the flow to the side.
They create vortices too i guess (couldn't get them with the level of detail i could squeeze out) don't know how useful they are there, since I didn't build the rest of the car downstream.
They divert the flow diagonally upward (upwash of some sort) along the flank of the bodywork as well. This diagonal flow goes over the edges of the V resulting in a vortex curling over and inward toward the centre line (? in the pic). Could have something to do with the cooling intakes at the roll hope as well downstream. I don't know.


someone asked for flow lines earlier.

see the upwash along the flank behind the dive plane? ^^

wing is inaccurate in parts i could not make out from pics.

Computational domain was small, to reduce calculation time, wish i could have found the time to do the wheels and side pods at least. Would have seen longer stream lines too.

Some of the flow lines toward the inside of the wing should have something to do with the floor and radiator openings. I can't say since I didn't make any more parts
End plates are self explanatory.
This whole thing is beyond me to sum up everything, there are some angled views which are interesting, especially with the bodywork behind the nose.
I'll just stop now.

[nipo]

I recall a thread called <somebody>'s transmission concept. I think that one was taken out from some threads and became a thread of its own. Somebody insisted he's got a revolutionary transmission concept which will completely change the way we think of transmissions. However he refuses to go into technical details for IP reasons, just claiming "you guys are all wrong", and at the same time it seemed he would like to take his idea "to the grave". It wasn't very pleasant to follow a thread in which a person continues to make strong but unfounded claims about other people's informed and educated guesses.

In this case I don't even see that we are dealing with any IP issues, just analysing images publicly available with commercial software. If anyone thinks he can call someone's work "complete rubbish", I can't see a single reason that proof is not provided. I must say Ringo is being a gentleman to be so forgiving, but I guess I have to speak up.

In any case, we should move this off into a new thread for aero analysis. After all, the subject says "Mercedes GP MGP W01".

[horse]

Computational domain was small, to reduce calculation time, wish i could have found the time to do the wheels and side pods at least. Would have seen longer stream lines too.

Yeah, I'd be a bit dubious about the results coming off the wing without the front wheel in there. And again, remember this is rotating, so the system is fairly complex in that region. It would almost certainly divert some flow inboard as well, I would guess.

[Mysticf1]

I think F1_eng is very knowledgeable and is worth listening to, but in the process of protecting his own livelihood (remember gooney) he can sometimes convey his point in a less than helpful manner, thats his right and i think the forum would be lesser without him.

my 2c anyway

[imightbewrong]

I think F1_eng is very knowledgeable and is worth listening to, but in the process of protecting his own livelihood (remember gooney) he can sometimes convey his point in a less than helpful manner, thats his right and i think the forum would be lesser without him.

my 2c anyway

+1

[djones]

I think if he is not English speaking then his posts might seem rude when in reality its just a rough translation.

If he is English speaking then he is a complete d!ck and needs to stop being so rude with people.

[axle]

I think if he is not English speaking then his posts might seem rude when in reality its just a rough translation.

If he is English speaking then he is a complete d!ck and needs to stop being so rude with people.

He's probably short on time and patience with people that think they know stuff but in fact know nothing...

I value his input as I know I know nothing other than the basics...

[raceman]

Mercedes is using six-paddled steering wheel - wonder for what they might use the 5th and 6th paddles.....!