Reducing the drag of a two element wing through stall

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autogyro
autogyro
53
Joined: 04 Oct 2009, 15:03

Re: Vodafone Mclaren Mercedes MP4/25

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marcush. wrote:
autogyro wrote:There is of course a foot operated throttle close to the fin intake.
haha the hose is run a bit crude and less than perfect below the throttle pedal ala
Toyota prius floormat and gets squeezed close when full throttle is applied...no knee
.. =D>
Hahaha
Designed by GM.

feynman
feynman
3
Joined: 02 Mar 2010, 20:36

Re: Vodafone Mclaren Mercedes MP4/25

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Yeah sure, maybe it's the radio that suddenly needs massive cooling, or some other piece of hardware that used to be on the sidepod floor, repositioned due to the larger fuel cell, needs some airflow over it ... but right now i am not buying it.

You don't design and build at least five seperate and distinct designs of inlet in four test session just to keep a box of electronics a little bit nearer ambient. And if that really was a pitot tube built into one of them, then game-over for cooling.

The big problem is that whole FIA movable-aero thing, those rules managed to ban tuned-mass dampers, a pedal squashing an airline would be easy pickings for the stewards.(As written, they could probably be used to ban steering wheels), so you are gonna have to play it real smart to get round that one.

Here's a nice patent from the 70s, it's basically the pneumatic equivalent of a transistor amplifier.

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/3724476.pdf

The control input from the snorkel could actively control the fin output, the nice thing about this design, is there are NO moving parts. I'd guess there is something equivalent behind the Mobil M access panel. (It used to be the Mobil b panel, but they moved the stickers when they added the camera blank).


The last problem is therefore how do you modulate that control input, from the cockpit, without using any moving parts, the line firmly fixed, and having zero degrees of freedom.
What we really need is an old-school pneumatics engineer to show us how to throttle a line without moving anything. (In the 60s they were building computers out of pneumatics before it all went silicon, there must be something clever that suits our needs here).

marcush.
marcush.
159
Joined: 09 Mar 2004, 16:55

Re: Vodafone Mclaren Mercedes MP4/25

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for sure the crossection of the snorkel cannot really have a huge impact on aero with the amount of air possible to funnel thru.It must have some sort of trigger effect..maybe something like boundary layer control ? i don´t know if the terminology would be correct for such as ystem..using the snorkels air feed to change the flow in the big airscoop with groundspeed as a parameter?

Raptor22
Raptor22
26
Joined: 07 Apr 2009, 22:48

Re: Vodafone Mclaren Mercedes MP4/25

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Maybe they have a midget in there doing the switching. that way theres no moving parts and will explain the snorkel

Raptor22
Raptor22
26
Joined: 07 Apr 2009, 22:48

Re: Vodafone Mclaren Mercedes MP4/25

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on a more srious note, It could be for cooling an electric motor used to adjust the front wing flap angle.
Or even a pneumatic adjuster for the front wing flap angle
or a hydarulic motor for the front wing

or ....or......or

autogyro
autogyro
53
Joined: 04 Oct 2009, 15:03

Re: Vodafone Mclaren Mercedes MP4/25

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Raptor22 wrote:on a more srious note, It could be for cooling an electric motor used to adjust the front wing flap angle.
Or even a pneumatic adjuster for the front wing flap angle
or a hydarulic motor for the front wing

or ....or......or
I would go for a female midget, much more fun.

User avatar
Shaddock
0
Joined: 07 Nov 2006, 14:39
Location: UK

Re: Vodafone Mclaren Mercedes MP4/25

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Raptor22 wrote:on a more srious note, It could be for cooling an electric motor used to adjust the front wing flap angle.
Or even a pneumatic adjuster for the front wing flap angle
or a hydarulic motor for the front wing

or ....or......or

The motors are in the endplates, and how much cooling does an electic motor need when it's only used a couple of times a lap for a two second burst.

Raptor22
Raptor22
26
Joined: 07 Apr 2009, 22:48

Re: Vodafone Mclaren Mercedes MP4/25

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In the endplates? Do youhave pictures?

Giblet
Giblet
5
Joined: 19 Mar 2007, 01:47
Location: Canada

Re: Vodafone Mclaren Mercedes MP4/25

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You can see the access panel here
Image
Before I do anything I ask myself “Would an idiot do that?” And if the answer is yes, I do not do that thing. - Dwight Schrute

Raptor22
Raptor22
26
Joined: 07 Apr 2009, 22:48

Re: Vodafone Mclaren Mercedes MP4/25

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That access panel could also be for the sliding mechanism on that end of the wing. the upper element must be retained.

usually a stepper is mounted in the main plane closer to the centre of the car

Giblet
Giblet
5
Joined: 19 Mar 2007, 01:47
Location: Canada

Re: Vodafone Mclaren Mercedes MP4/25

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But it isn't.

I am just going on a previous discussion and picture, which I can not find in a cursory search.

Problem is half of this stuff I know is in my F1 Magazines, which are boxed away since I moved, and a pain in the arse to get to.

There was an article last year discussing the huge Toyota Force India shunt, and how much money it cost to fix/replace. The wings were almost twice as costly as 2008 due to the motors in the endplates.

Bar555 likely has pictures, search away.
Before I do anything I ask myself “Would an idiot do that?” And if the answer is yes, I do not do that thing. - Dwight Schrute

pgj
pgj
0
Joined: 22 Mar 2006, 14:39

Re: Reducing the drag of a two element wing through stall

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@Raptor22 Thank you.
Williams and proud of it.

Richard
Richard
Moderator
Joined: 15 Apr 2009, 14:41
Location: UK

Re: Vodafone Mclaren Mercedes MP4/25

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The idea of the motor mounted in the nose baffles me. You'd have then transfer that power down to the flap along a tortuous path via the wing supports. That would weigh more, introduce inaccuracy due to transmission losses, and more scope for failure.

Also, I can't see why it would need a snorkel of that size for cooling when all it has to do is a little nudge no more than twice per lap.

Can't see anything simpler than a little step motor applied directly to the flap.

Pup
Pup
50
Joined: 08 May 2008, 17:45

Re: Reducing the drag of a two element wing through stall

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You guys let me know when you're ready to approach this issue with any sense of order.

Last I remember, someone with access to CFD software was going to test the induced drag theory. Did that ever happen? No? Just wallowing in pet theories then?

OK, I'll just come back when the unicorns are gone. :roll:

And Raptor, it's fine to question SLC's credentials, but if you do so, you might want to put some up for review yourself. Because to me, it looks like you're just randomly posting whatever aerodynamicy stuff you happen to find on Wikipedia.

Pup
Pup
50
Joined: 08 May 2008, 17:45

Re: Reducing the drag of a two element wing through stall

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Raptor22 wrote:Drag is an opposing force to moving anything through a fluid. it is a cost.

there is also a cost to thrust a cost to lift and mass.

Then in aircraft there is lift to drag ratio's wing loading and the list goes on.

With aircraft through, the drag reduces the higher the aircraft flies while thrust usually improves up to a certain point before fallng off again.

for F1 cars drag is also a cost of forward motion. Theres also adhesion that needs to be accounted for. F1 cars do not obey laws of friction out on track, laws of adhesion are more important.
I mean c'mon - this is most bizarre bit of randomness I think I've ever read. Raptor, are you for real, or is this just some sort of parody?