Increasing Down force through Rotation of wheels

DaveKillens · Post 14 Dec 2005, 23:01

Sometimes we wander off topic...

But reverting to the concept of using the spinning wheels to generate airflow, and then direct it in such a manner to obtain lift, the problem is that once you reach the ouside of the wheels, it's difficult to attach any devices for such a purpose. But there are examples of racing cars using the wheels to augment downforce. The corvettes use the front wheels to help evacuate the front bottom of the body, thus generating downforce. Suck it out the front.

wowf1 · Post 15 Dec 2005, 18:30

I actually think that using the wheels to create downforce, ie. by directing the air upward is a bad idea in terms of drag.

The aim of downforce (as we know of course) is to increase the effective weight of the car, and hence increase the lateral frictional force generated by the tyres. This allows the cars to go round corners at a higher speed.

My idea (and Manchild's, he got in there first

) is to provide this lateral force by generating horizontal thrust in the appropriate direction depending on whether you're turning right or left.

The result would be that less downforce by method of flip-ups/wings/underfloor is required, reducing drag. Because the vanes in in the wheels are variable in their angle, they could be trimmed to 0degrees for the straight to reduce drag and reduce engine power consumption. But when you get to a corner, say a right-hand bend, the vanes change their angle so that they thrust air to the left of the car. This would have a number of effects:

- The aforementioned thrust which generates lateral force
- The drag would help slow the car down (ie. helping the brakes)
- It would cool the brakes at the time they most need it-under heavy braking.

ss.vamsikrishna · Post 16 Dec 2005, 07:29

yep , but still the discussion is going on very well, lot of input has come up.
keep it going guys.......but there are lots of advantages by pushing the air in.....wowf1 i fully agree with u with u on those points.........
great!!!!!!!!

MRE · Post 16 Dec 2005, 12:02

Don't waste your time and money to create a downforce using Formula One;s wheel. It is weird and a waste. Team will not development a research on in.Believe me..stick to aerodynamics and mechanical grip it will be more worthy. What is the main point creating a downforce using the wheel..what is the advantage? What is the cost? It is not reasonable. Let develop the best chassis, its will guide you to seek some downforce. Power(Downforce) is nothing without control.

wowf1 · Post 16 Dec 2005, 15:31

lol I have no mis-conceptions of F1 teams ploughing money into this idea MRE! It would be an illegal device to begin with, never mind the 'unknown' factor.

However, what would happen if no one pioneered new ideas and spent money on developing 'unknowns'? Then engineering, and motorsport in particular would become very stale and stationary.

I don't like condemning ideas until there is proof of their inability to do the job, so I'm happy to continue.

DaveKillens · Post 16 Dec 2005, 18:35

Using the wheels to generate sideforce is interesting, but please think it through.
Moving so much air through the wheel would have a powerful influence on anything near it. A car attempting to pass on the outside would literally be blown off the track. Entering a high speed corner like Eau Rouge would have the inside wheel blowing air directly into the body, probably under the nose, probably flipping it over backward. Imagine the spray around the car in a rain situation. It would create huge clouds of spray for dozens of meters to each side. Imagine an unscrupulous team using this. Assume they are in the lead, all they do is command each wheel to blow air out from the bodywork. There would be so much spray obscuring the cars behind that it would be a genuine safety risk, not to mention making overtaing impossible.
To make this concept work, there would be some form of moveable vanes inside the wheel. Parts fail, and if one of those vanes was to suffer such a disaster, consider the energy and speed it would depart the car. If bad luck sent it in the wrong direction, it could easily kill a spectator.
There are disadvantages to this concept.

ss.vamsikrishna · Post 19 Dec 2005, 06:44

that is what i want to know and i fully agree wowf1 to know about this ideas
advantages and disadvantages, because soon things will became stale and stagnent.......in the aerodynamics ,they have to come up with some different ideas...........so R&D .............

ginsu · Post 17 Jan 2006, 06:36

wowf1 wrote:
The aim of downforce (as we know of course) is to increase the effective weight of the car, and hence increase the lateral frictional force generated by the tyres. This allows the cars to go round corners at a higher speed.

My idea (and Manchild's, he got in there first ) is to provide this lateral force by generating horizontal thrust in the appropriate direction depending on whether you're turning right or left.

I think this is a neat idea (although, FIA would never allow it). And I do have one idea to add, as this variable vane device would have different operating modes depending on where it was on the track.

One mode could be where this would be just an extension of the Brabham 'fan-car' concept sucking air from the bottom of the car 'sucking' it to the ground due to the low pressure maintained by the vacuum effect of the wheels (it would only really work on the rear wheels, because of the underbody). Because this is variable vane you could turn this off on the straights when you want no drag on the wheels, but under braking it would suddenly turn on by altering the angle of attack of the vanes, helping to slow the wheel (possibly reducing the need for rear brake calipers). This would start vacuum to the underbody (with ducting of course) and would effectively move the aerodynamic center of pressure rearward during heavy braking. I know this would be desirable as it would make the car more stable under braking.