Reducing the drag of a two element wing through stall

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Raptor22
Raptor22
26
Joined: 07 Apr 2009, 22:48

Re: McLaren MP4/25 Air Intake

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Certainly it is a different rack to what they would use elsewhere but there are not two racks in one car on a given circuit. The Monaco rack has lower gearing to facilitate faster lock to lock transfer.

They also use racks with a variable actuation of the steering arms.

Hopper
Hopper
0
Joined: 08 Mar 2010, 23:42

Re: Reducing the drag of a two element wing through stall

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autogyro wrote:
impaero wrote:A totally random idea: what if the slot isn't blowing air, but sucking it in? What happens to the flow?
How would sucking on a low pressure area achieve anything?
Sucking air in has been tried on the top high pressure area of a wing.
It uses up a lot of energy.
Has been said before in this very thread: boundary layer suction is an option to keep the flow over the airfoil laminar (by preventing the boundary layer to develop) as long as possible and therefore reduce drag. I don't believe it could be achieved in this application because of the high AOA and the need to dispose of this sucked in boundary layer (where does the sucked in air go?).
autogyro wrote: The slot does not have to 'shut' at high flow speed.
It only requires that the air being fed to the slot runs out of volume at a fixed speed and then there will not be enough air to form a boundary fill.
A suitably sized intake will do this on its own.
Here we're getting to a very tricky part of the whole stalling issue: controllability. If the stalling of the wing is controlled in a natural manner (the airflow velocity decides when the wing stalls or not) how can the track engineers be sure the wing will stall (and recover) at the desired locations on a track? Change in wind speed and direction during the week-end could mess up the fine-tuning of the stalling point. If the wing only stalls at very high speed (near the top speed of the car) then I don't really see it as a big advantage, because the car isn't at top speed most of the time. If the wing stalls at lower speeds there is the danger of the wing stalling at the exit of a very fast corner (because of a gust for example) and the car could lose a lot of downforce at a critical moment.

impaero
impaero
0
Joined: 13 Feb 2010, 19:07

Re: Reducing the drag of a two element wing through stall

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Hopper wrote: I don't believe it could be achieved in this application because of the high AOA and the need to dispose of this sucked in boundary layer (where does the sucked in air go?).
If linked to the engine air intake?

l.etranger
l.etranger
0
Joined: 29 Mar 2009, 00:05

Re: Reducing the drag of a two element wing through stall

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It's too bad SLC has given up on this topic - I think it's worth looking deeper into the importance of lift-induced drag in the strategy of gaining speed by stalling the wing. I have to admit that I found the idea to seem like voodoo the first time I heard about it, but I ran some numbers and I believe it's true. I also believe that induced drag is the critical factor in making this work.

Though my aero experience is informal, my understanding of drag on lifting surfaces was that it can be considered as the sum of three factors:
Skin friction, from shear forces acting parallel to the surface
Pressure or Form drag, caused by incomplete pressure recovery on the suction surfaces (the back side), acting normal to the surface
and Induced drag or more evocatively lift-induced drag, caused by the span-wise circulation "tilting" the angle between the wing and the local flow and thus "tilting" the wing's lift vector backward from vertical. Crucially, this also manifests itself as a pressure differential (like form drag), which can make it somewhat academic to consider it separately to pressure drag.

Anyone with a degree in the matter can feel free to call me down from these claims, but I think they're representative and helpful in understanding the forces involved.

Authors (such as Katz) like to give the claim that unstalled wings (no flow separation) have "zero" form drag - muddle through d'Alembert's paradox to get the idea:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%27Alembert%27s_paradox
When stall (turbulent boundary-layer separation) occurs, the form drag becomes nonzero and, in textbook airplane wings with long spans and low section lift (lift force per unit span), increase the drag. As SLC has reiterated, though, F1 wings are very different - very short spans with high section lift coefficients.
My thinking is that the short span is crucial, since the lift per unit span determines the lift-induced drag. The formula that demonstrates this is noncontroversial and pretty intelligible. You can reference it here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lift%E2%80%93induced_drag
I wrote an Excel spreadsheet to apply this formula (as well as the formula for lift), using some values for a 2010 rear wing, assuming a velocity of 80/s (almost 29kph), and a wing lift coefficient of 2.5. This is a ballpark guess based on examples from Katz and other sources – if anyone has intimate knowledge of a more representative number, I’m sure we’d all be thrilled to hear it. The other inputs you need are the dimensions of the wing:
Image
Using these inputs, I ran into an issue with some missing terms:
Image
The value "k" is an efficiency factor. It is the inverse of the Oswald efficiency factor "e" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oswald_efficiency_number)
It's a little more than one for most airplane wings, but for a wing with endplates it can be significantly lower - indicating a more efficient wing.
(http://www-aa.stanford.edu/Reports/VKI_ ... r_Kroo.pdf)
I estimated k based on the height of the endplate and a simple equation from Katz. With this, the unknowns filled in and, with the lift equation, got a drag force and Lift-Induced Drag ratio for the wing:
Image
As you can see, induced drag forces are significant. Note that I didn't include any factor to adjust for proximity to the ground or any other geometric influences besides the endplates. If anyone has a suggestion for a more representative value for e, I'm all ears.

For a stalled wing, I used a flat-plate equation and the geometric angle of attack to resolve the forces. Note that induced drag still applies because there is still a spanwise circulation and a trailing vortex sheet proportional to the vertical load.
Image
As you can see, the back of my envelope shows a 24% drop in rear wing drag. Note that this is for a fully-stalled wing - more likely an F1 wing would have some attached flow and therefore a *partially* stalled wing, and so a smaller effect size.

I hope you're not all too worn down from intellectual struggle to weigh in on my numbers - as you can see, I rely on some assumptions about key values, and other people's empirical study. If I'm way off the plot I'd like to know, because my numbers show that induced drag is <b>critical</b> in making the stall work for us- not a minor factor.
I realize that I haven't included form and skin drags in my calculations of the unstalled wing. In support of this, I offer up this research, showing that the section L/D for a 40% chord single-flap wing at 2.5 Lift coefficient is over 20 (page 26):
http://aerade.cranfield.ac.uk/ara/1941/ ... rt-723.pdf
Section drag is a 2D effect and doesn't model the 3D spanwise flow that causes induced drag - only form and skin frictions. The short-chord F1 wing at a similar section load produces about 10 times as much drag - lift-induced drag dominates.

tok-tokkie
tok-tokkie
37
Joined: 08 Jun 2009, 16:21
Location: Cape Town

Re: Reducing the drag of a two element wing through stall

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I am struggling with all those numbers.
For the 'flying' wing: Downforce = 4555 N
...................... Drag = 2515 N

For the Stalled wing: Downforce = 2563 N
....................... Drag = 3119 N

What am I missing? Those figures seem to indicate the drag increases with stalling & the downforce reduces.

F1_eng
F1_eng
4
Joined: 05 Aug 2009, 11:38

Re: Reducing the drag of a two element wing through stall

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Image

Image

Just to show the behaviour a single element wing would exhibit with a blown section. Done on one of my home computers very very quickly, maybe 15 mins from drawing the section to acceptable convergence.

The lower image has a section of the wing with a blown section at 4000Pa with a free-stream velocity of approx 57m/s.

The scales of the second case have been cropped for easy comparison to the first or the whole colour contours change scale and often it's awkward to make any sort of visual analysis.


I won't give you a break-down of the forces on the wings now, i'd like to see what people's interpretations are, there are some idiotic ideas out there, completely unfounded.

And what on earth was the discussion about using the drivers knee as a way of controling the device?

Hope you enjoy it.

astracrazy
astracrazy
31
Joined: 04 Mar 2009, 16:04

Re: McLaren MP4/25 Air Intake

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btw the rear wing has been declared legal

Steve S14
Steve S14
0
Joined: 11 Mar 2010, 02:05

Re: McLaren MP4/25 Air Intake

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http://en.espnf1.com/bahrain/motorsport ... 10755.html

i love how f1-live will publish almost anything :)

It is believed McLaren's system involves an air inlet on the upper left monocoque top, which is opened and closed by a trigger activated by the drivers' knee. Germany's Auto Motor und Sport quoted an FIA official as describing it as a "simple but brilliant trick".

bill shoe
bill shoe
151
Joined: 19 Nov 2008, 08:18
Location: Dallas, Texas, USA

Re: McLaren MP4/25 Air Intake

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I was confidently skeptical when I read some of the theories on this thread (and the McLaren thread) about how the McLaren wing/vent/whatever system worked. Driver knee operated air valves? It just seemed too goofy. It appears that I, and other skeptics who were more vocal, were wrong. Congratulations to all the creative thinkers on this website, and particularly the ones who fleshed out the plausible workings of this device.

Here's an autosport story on the thing.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/81997

antitomm
antitomm
0
Joined: 25 Feb 2010, 10:44

Re: Reducing the drag of a two element wing through stall

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since moveable aero devices are banned the driver provides the mechanical input for the device to work at selective speeds. this can only be done if the control valve for the device can be easily used by the driver even when driving at 300 kph. the location of the duct is also important because mclaren have ostensibly mentioned that the ducting is for driver cooling thus claiming that the driver is merely switching it off when not required. thus the valve above the knee serves the function.

its amazing that people on the forum figured out the system through analysis.

bosanac1
bosanac1
3
Joined: 25 Jan 2007, 01:08

Re: McLaren MP4/25 Air Intake

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f1 technical =D>


i wonder how much advantage could the stall wing produce anyone want to take guess. 10km/h?

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forty-two
0
Joined: 01 Mar 2010, 21:07

Re: Reducing the drag of a two element wing through stall

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antitomm wrote:since moveable aero devices are banned the driver provides the mechanical input for the device to work at selective speeds. this can only be done if the control valve for the device can be easily used by the driver even when driving at 300 kph. the location of the duct is also important because mclaren have ostensibly mentioned that the ducting is for driver cooling thus claiming that the driver is merely switching it off when not required. thus the valve above the knee serves the function.

its amazing that people on the forum figured out the system through analysis.

I don't think any concrete confirmation of what the snorkel is for has been published anywhere, merely that some journalists have mentioned the idea that it might be in some way "controlled" by the driver's knee. It would not surprise me if the journalist's source for this information turned out to be sites like this one.

We will have to wait and see I guess..... these sort of things usually come out in the wash in the end.
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RacingManiac
RacingManiac
9
Joined: 22 Nov 2004, 02:29

Re: McLaren MP4/25 Air Intake

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I am amazed that you can keep the flow all the way from a tiny intake to get it to the back to stall the wing....and not any where near being a straightline......

Just_a_fan
Just_a_fan
593
Joined: 31 Jan 2010, 20:37

Re: McLaren MP4/25 Air Intake

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bill shoe wrote:I was confidently skeptical when I read some of the theories on this thread (and the McLaren thread) about how the McLaren wing/vent/whatever system worked. Driver knee operated air valves? It just seemed too goofy. It appears that I, and other skeptics who were more vocal, were wrong. Congratulations to all the creative thinkers on this website, and particularly the ones who fleshed out the plausible workings of this device.

Here's an autosport story on the thing.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/81997
There is nothing in that article that proves the use of the driver's knee. The phrase used is "The air tunnel is believed". That's because no one outside of McLaren knows what the thing is or how it is operated. We have already seen lots of websites reporting the knee thing but none seems to have any proof. So far as we know, Autosport is just spouting one of our (and as a new member here I include myself in that only loosely) pet theories. That doesn't make it true but it must make the active forum members feel good about the forum.
If you are more fortunate than others, build a larger table not a taller fence.

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forty-two
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Joined: 01 Mar 2010, 21:07

Re: McLaren MP4/25 Air Intake

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bosanac1 wrote:f1 technical =D>
+1
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