Reducing the drag of a two element wing through stall

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segedunum
segedunum
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Joined: 03 Apr 2007, 13:49

Re: Driver activated aerodynamics

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DaveKillens wrote:I remember when races in the past, a driver on a straight would tilt and lower his head in order to open up even more room for air entry into the airbox. So please, the issue on whether a driver can move about and influence airflow has been established. There are powerful precedents.
To compare that with the intent of this 'system' is completely inaccurate.

Giblet
Giblet
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Joined: 19 Mar 2007, 01:47
Location: Canada

Re: Driver activated aerodynamics

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segedunum wrote:
Just_a_fan wrote:It is not illegal. If it were, the FIA/stewards would have refused McLaren permission to race the system this weekend.

It is legal.
Get over it.
I'm afraid the FIA and stewards have a rather poor track record over such things, as we all know, so referring to their decision is the usual cop-out and won't stop discussion about it. You're certainly not adding to it.
They've changes the steward system this year. They have no track record yet,except what they had gained as former drivers. Hill and Prost are two of them.
Before I do anything I ask myself “Would an idiot do that?” And if the answer is yes, I do not do that thing. - Dwight Schrute

jason.parker.86
jason.parker.86
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Joined: 29 Mar 2009, 21:57

Re: Vodafone Mclaren Mercedes MP4/25

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Everyone seems to be under the impression its a knee activated system, must be annoying having to remember to plug that hole but I bet they like the extra cooling. Give it 3 weeks and we'll see some stupid large snorkels

wrcsti
wrcsti
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Joined: 06 Apr 2009, 04:46

Re: Vodafone Mclaren Mercedes MP4/25

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jason.parker.86 wrote:Everyone seems to be under the impression its a knee activated system, must be annoying having to remember to plug that hole but I bet they like the extra cooling. Give it 3 weeks and we'll see some stupid large snorkels
Why? If the snorkel really is knee activated it is just a switch. The air comes in through the airbox.

jason.parker.86
jason.parker.86
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Joined: 29 Mar 2009, 21:57

Re: Vodafone Mclaren Mercedes MP4/25

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Yes, but the larger the air intake the greater volume of air and thus more they can stall that wing?

Just_a_fan
Just_a_fan
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Joined: 31 Jan 2010, 20:37

Re: Driver activated aerodynamics

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segedunum wrote:
Just_a_fan wrote:It is not illegal. If it were, the FIA/stewards would have refused McLaren permission to race the system this weekend.

It is legal.
Get over it.
I'm afraid the FIA and stewards have a rather poor track record over such things, as we all know, so referring to their decision is the usual cop-out and won't stop discussion about it. You're certainly not adding to it.
But the stewards and the FIA decide if something is legal. It doesn't matter if we think they're a bunch of idiots (and I'm sure that we would agree on that conclusion in many circumstances) they are the ones who decide.

I don't see how it's a cop-out to refer to the judge's decision on a point of legality.

You can discuss / argue all you like about the finer points of how you read the regulations (and I'd love to join in those discussions - we might even agree on some stuff :D ) but at the end of the day we don't decide on the legality of a car; the FIA does. And they have decided (so far) that it is legal.

Our discussions won't change anything but we are free to have those discussions. What gets my goat slightly is people saying "it's illegal" when it has been already decided that it is legal by the FIA. What they should be saying is "I think it's illegal because of X and Y". Some people aren't doing that or they are just saying "it's a moveable aero part and therefore illegal". The discussion should surely be "Is it really a moveable aero part and if so why?"
If you are more fortunate than others, build a larger table not a taller fence.

RacingManiac
RacingManiac
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Joined: 22 Nov 2004, 02:29

Re: Vodafone Mclaren Mercedes MP4/25

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jason.parker.86 wrote:Everyone seems to be under the impression its a knee activated system, must be annoying having to remember to plug that hole but I bet they like the extra cooling. Give it 3 weeks and we'll see some stupid large snorkels

I was more of a fan of it being foot actuated, but I heard about the knee pad from a pod cast as someone seeing Lewis wear it....

inside_voice
inside_voice
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Joined: 12 Mar 2010, 22:03

Re: Reducing the drag of a two element wing through stall

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Evening, all!

Fuzzy, here is my take at explaining.

First let me say that even if stalling a single element might not sound sensible, it is just a matter of referential.

The only thing that needs to be done is to breakdown the actual force applied on that secondary profile between a component parallel to the ground (drag) and a perpendicular one (downforce).

That might sound trivial, but we just need to agree that drag and downforce are not defined relative to the profile chord or whatever.

With the secondary profile being so inclined relative to the ground (carefull, I am just talkig about inclination relative to the ground, angle of attack is not the same here, as the incoming flow as been bent upwards by the first element), when the flow is attached, the resulting force contains a drag component that is quite strong.
When you need maximum downforce from your wing (say, when you turn :wink: ), that drag component is not a major issue for you: you want max df, pay the price for it.

However, in straight, you don't care really about your downforce past a certain point. Therefore, if you could prevent this second profile from working properly, then you should be able to save on the drag component. From there comes the idea of stalling.
In the books, stalling a wing is not great, because you look at forces in the wing referential. Projecting them on the ground referential, and again because of that high inclination of the second profile, the actual drag penalty is quite reduced.
And in the same time, the drag penalty you were taking from creating maximum downforce from your wing is gone...

I saw in one of the previous pages a graph where the forces on the second profile were represented in the profile referential. I will not take it and project them back in the ground referential, but have a look at that and you'll understand.

Hopefully, I was clear enough!

jason.parker.86
jason.parker.86
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Joined: 29 Mar 2009, 21:57

Re: Vodafone Mclaren Mercedes MP4/25

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According to ScarbsF1 twitter post it is a knee operated device, and I to was more of a fan of the foot operated device. Actually I thought the decice would work better is they made the hole "closed" when the throttle was on full whack! This way it would be automatic, the driver would not need to do anything apart from put his foot down!

Just_a_fan
Just_a_fan
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Joined: 31 Jan 2010, 20:37

Re: Driver activated aerodynamics

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Raptor22 wrote:This whole thing is ridiculous.

the driver activates a system that changes the cars rear wing aerodynamics. It's illegal, pure and simple.

The ducted air is used for a purpose other than cooling, the moving air is used to disrupt the flow (apparently) therefore that air stream is a movable device and is illegal.
This is an interesting point.

If we extend the logic we could quite easily argue that all of the vortex generators are illegal (because they are there purely to disrupt the airflow in order to gain a benefit elsewhere on the car). Likewise the silly aerofoil sections that are incorporated in to the brake duct systems. They are classified as being part of the brake duct but they are clearly not there to aid cooling; they are there to aid downforce production both at the hub and downstream of the wheels.

Downforce applied to the unsprung parts of the car was effectively banned years ago but here we see it on every car in the paddock.

On a general point, I wonder how many of those passionately arguing against the McLaren system's legality are ardent supporters of other teams / drivers. For transparency, I will declare my interest in seeing McLaren doing well but I also have a soft spot for what was Brawn (they're based a few miles from my home) and STR (because I used to have a soft spot for Minardi - a friend used to work for them amongst others).
If you are more fortunate than others, build a larger table not a taller fence.

RacingManiac
RacingManiac
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Joined: 22 Nov 2004, 02:29

Re: Vodafone Mclaren Mercedes MP4/25

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I think that'll be risky on tracks like Spa, where Eau Rouge is flat but you definitely still need rear downforce.....

conni
conni
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Joined: 07 Jan 2010, 22:09

Re: Vodafone Mclaren Mercedes MP4/25

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i think you are misleading yourselves??

the air that comes in through the snorkel ONLY actuates the main valve which opens in the airbox and allows the excess air going through the airbox to do its job

conni

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Pandamasque
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Joined: 09 Nov 2009, 17:28
Location: Kyiv, Ukraine

Re: Vodafone Mclaren Mercedes MP4/25

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conni wrote:i think you are misleading yourselves??

the air that comes in through the snorkel ONLY actuates the main valve which opens in the airbox and allows the excess air going through the airbox to do its job

conni
The valve would be a movable aerodynamic devise.

conni
conni
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Joined: 07 Jan 2010, 22:09

Re: Vodafone Mclaren Mercedes MP4/25

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no it isnt its a movable valve!! a wing is an aero device and they dont move the wing they move the air thats why its such a simple idea

conni

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Shaddock
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Joined: 07 Nov 2006, 14:39
Location: UK

Re: Driver activated aerodynamics

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Raptor22 wrote: The ducted air is used for a purpose other than cooling, the moving air is used to disrupt the flow (apparently) therefore that air stream is a movable device and is illegal.
You can't ban air for being a moving aerodynamic device, it would be like banning water because its wet.

The regulations clearly state that the driver isn't a movable aerodynamic device, therefore any interaction he has with the aerodynamics of the car are legal. Nobody has thought of it before, and yet it's pretty simple, this is what F1 is all about, innovation.