Is F1 getting boring?

[manchild]

Let me try to explain why there was no overtaking (although this fits "Is F1 getting boring" topic).

FIA (he) did not lead F1 to this state by accident or due to stupidity, nope, FIA (he) was just piling money and lying to F1 fans. Unfortunately, some teams profited from it, and lack of unity among teams was just what FIA (he) needed.

"Divide et impera"

There is no overtaking precisely because FIA has made cars so similar. The more similar they are, the less overtaking there will be.

To have great racing you need to have different cars, different concepts, but with similar performance.

Similar cars ≠ cars with similar performance.

Similar cars = cars unable to overtake each other.

You need to have cars with similar overall lap time, but not identical performance in all sectors, same top speed, nor same cornering speed.

Not to waste any more words - Dijon 1979. Completely, totally, incomparably different cars:

Renault 1.5l V6 turbo vs. Ferrari with B12 3l normally aspirated. Different aero too, suspension, everything...

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kl2tIFxSEGA[/youtube]

[manchild]

My two cent's on this topic viewtopic.php?f=12&t=7658&p=156521#p156521

[BreezyRacer]

Let me try to explain why there was no overtaking (although this fits "Is F1 getting boring" topic).

FIA (he) did not lead F1 to this state by accident or due to stupidity, nope, FIA (he) was just piling money and lying to F1 fans. Unfortunately, some teams profited from it, and lack of unity among teams was just what FIA (he) needed.

"Divide et impera"

There is no overtaking precisely because FIA has made cars so similar. The more similar they are, the less overtaking there will be.

To have great racing you need to have different cars, different concepts, but with similar performance.

Similar cars ≠ cars with similar performance.

Similar cars = cars unable to overtake each other.

I agree with your premise but this ain't 1979. Now teams/engineers know a LOT more. And they have incredible resources. If you open up the rulebook for diversity you'll just find that all take the optimized path and they are all largely maxed out within the first season .. many during the first 3 races. It's like a dog trying to catch his tail .. a game we just cannot seem to win.

I would like something along the lines of what was tried with the overtaking group .. except for the diffuser debacle. A lot can be done to at least make these these cars draft well against each other. That would bring back some passing, along with tighter engine controls.

[autogyro]

The only problem with that is that you are wrong.
Overtaking problems are almost completely caused by DF and aero turbulance because of it.
Watch any other formula with sensible aero or far less DF and you will see the difference.
IMO aero is the major issue slowly destroying F1.
The RB6 and its ride height technology is a part of this problem.
The balance between mechanical handling, aero set up and power output has become dominated by DF and other technical factors take a far less important place in the over all package.

[manchild]

I think that the blame should be put on technology which prevents driver's mistakes (sequential gearboxes, switch operated clutch, eng. anti-stall, diff. adjustment, FBW, etc.) not the aero.

However, I can't see your point about RB6 superiority causing the problem. It sounds as if you work for one of their rivals. Ferrari was unable to beat RB, but Mclaren was also unable to bet Ferrari, Mercedes was unable to beat Mclaren, etc. There was no overtaking at all among top teams. There was a caravan in the desert, not a race.

[segedunum]

The only problem with that is that you are wrong.
Overtaking problems are almost completely caused by DF and aero turbulance because of it. Watch any other formula with sensible aero or far less DF and you will see the difference.

This is rubbish really. This gets trotted out every time. There has been a concerted effort to minimise downforce over a period of many years and it has failed. You can't minimise aerodynamics unless you totally standardise the cars, and even in other formulas all you see are cars doing similar lap times with similar speeds.

We've had overtaking with an aerodynamic effect hppening. What we need is an increase in mechanical grip, differences between cars (KERS versus non-KERS) and differences in physical tyre grip - either via different tyre manufacturers (no one is going to come in and do that now) or cars with tyres that wear tyres at varying rates. That's how we got some fairly exciting races in 2005. We had more variables on the mechanical grip front so we had overtaking in Japan and Alonso hunting down Raikkonen when he had flat-spotted his tyres.

Frank Dernie has already gone into this somewhere.

The balance between mechanical handling, aero set up and power output has become dominated by DF and other technical factors take a far less important place in the over all package.

Formula One has been dominated by downforce for several decades. Cornering speed has always been more important.

Off-topic, but you always get a few splinters.

[Giblet]

The downforce would have been visibly and quantifiably reduced had the double diffuser not been invented/allowed. The changes to the wings while not aesthetically pleasing to some, did much of what was intended.

I think the approach was correct, however the rule makers failed to see what could be done to claw back the downforce taken away. In modern times they always manage to regain some of the downforce that the FIA tries to remove, but the DDD managed to skew everything.

I don't want spec cars, but I have no problem with some spec parts. If they all had a spec floor and spec diffuser, it would not effect the racing.

Much respect to Newey for making a car that could compete with the DDD on near terms before slapping on their own version last year.

[G-Rock]

If you like passing then F1 isn't the sport for you. You should be watching the Australian Supercar series or something.

Who said that F1 has to have lot's of passing anyway? I mean, soccer (football) is the biggest sport in the world and most matches only have 3-4 goals scored the entire match. No one is complaining about that now are they.

F1 is about he best team/car/driver winning a race. Nothing more.

[marcush.]

If you like passing then F1 isn't the sport for you. You should be watching the Australian Supercar series or something.

Who said that F1 has to have lot's of passing anyway? I mean, soccer (football) is the biggest sport in the world and most matches only have 3-4 goals scored the entire match. No one is complaining about that now are they.

F1 is about he best team/car/driver winning a race. Nothing more.

+1
F1 to me is about technology and the best drivers of the world battling it out.
these gents are just too good to be overtake easily.
and about mr.Dernies idea of manual shifts:Looking at the array of knobs and dials on current steering wheels I don´t think it could get any more complicated or demanding..?would Mr.Schumacher have any trouble to puthis hand on a gearlever instead of pulling a paddle?
Dernie is glorfies those good ol days when aa williams FW o5or was it 06 showed promise in the hands of Mr.Jones but every race there was happening something ..going wrong ,breaking ..
the only cars still having that aura of being fragile are Red Bull and Virgin..

[nipo]

It is plain stupid to say that if you want overtaking you have to watch something other than F1.

The logical question to that is "Why?"

It is very sensible to say overtaking is not everything in racing, particularly in F1. But to have a car 2 seconds quicker coasting behind another and not being able to find any passing opportunity spells trouble to me. F1 might not need a truckload of passes each race, might not need the passing and re-passing we see in MotoGP (and my oh my that's really thrilling don't you think), but for the car behind to have so much trouble in even considering a pass (marbles, wake, tire wear, engine management, etc.), the purpose of racing seems to have been defeated.

Back to topic - yeah F1 races are getting boring. Would more passes fix it? Sure. Is that worth all the research and experimenting with rules? Questionable. Personally I think the TV show could be improved a lot by showing loads more information on screen / turning to interactive TV experience. F1 has long become an "information sport" as I like to call it - there is much more going on than meets the eye. The engineering, strategy and stuff happening around the track generally all contribute to the outcome of a race and it is not only cars with four wheels moving around. This information needs to be revealed in a timely manner to the audience. Along that line, computer aided analysis on the spot would also help, as will side-by-side replay of, for example, how two top drivers take a set of complex corners in the laps they each did their fastest sector times in.

Back to overtaking - the idea of an RPM boost unlocked when a driver is following another car sounds very interesting. It is probably worth looking at as a cheap alternative to all that KERS / modifying circuits / changing aerodynamics rules etc.

[Raptor22]

Let me try to explain why there was no overtaking (although this fits "Is F1 getting boring" topic).

FIA (he) did not lead F1 to this state by accident or due to stupidity, nope, FIA (he) was just piling money and lying to F1 fans. Unfortunately, some teams profited from it, and lack of unity among teams was just what FIA (he) needed.

"Divide et impera"

There is no overtaking precisely because FIA has made cars so similar. The more similar they are, the less overtaking there will be.

To have great racing you need to have different cars, different concepts, but with similar performance.

Similar cars ≠ cars with similar performance.

Similar cars = cars unable to overtake each other.

You need to have cars with similar overall lap time, but not identical performance in all sectors, same top speed, nor same cornering speed.

Not to waste any more words - Dijon 1979. Completely, totally, incomparably different cars:

Renault 1.5l V6 turbo vs. Ferrari with B12 3l normally aspirated. Different aero too, suspension, everything...

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kl2tIFxSEGA[/youtube]

then please explain why there is more overtaking in single make formulae...

[lebesset]

nipo , wish I had thought of that ! allowing a higher rev limit for , say , 60 seconds per race might work well !
don't know how much extra power and extra thousand rpm would bring though

[autogyro]

The answer IMO it an over all limit on the actual Down Force.
There are two things needed to make this work.
One: To research and define the limiting level of force.
Two: Find a fair and practical way to measure and enforce the regulation.

Only problem of course is to cut through all the vested interest and bickering from Fota and other parties.
Perhaps John Todt could just say, this is how it is going to be, live with it.

[manchild]

The answer IMO it an over all limit on the actual Down Force.
There are two things needed to make this work.
One: To research and define the limiting level of force.
Two: Find a fair and practical way to measure and enforce the regulation.

That's like saying that the crisis emerged because FIA ditched practice of what you're mentioning as suggestion for way out.

Best racing was when FIA did not interfere with aero regulations apart from safety aspect, and they way out to stop doing that. FIA should deal with safety only, and let engineers find the way to build faster cars than their rivals. Staged play isn't a documentary. We need a documentary in F1. Staged play kills racing and implementation of new technology.

Battle of drivers and new technology is what fans cry for in surveys.

[Pandamasque]

Battle of drivers and new technology is what fans cry for in surveys.

The current rules are already there, preventing it. Action (i.e. rewriting the rules) is necessary achieve what the fans cry for.

The answer IMO it an over all limit on the actual Down Force.
There are two things needed to make this work.
One: To research and define the limiting level of force.
Two: Find a fair and practical way to measure and enforce the regulation.

For once I agree with you. I asked about this on F1T some time ago and someone suggested they could use a load sensor to measure DF.

To me the ideal F1 would be:
- engines limited solely by amount of energy per race, and the restricted usage of exotic materials. No refueling.
- aero limited by dimensions, and max DF limit.
- wide slicks, no tire rules for Saturday and Sunday. No compulsory pitstops.