Red Bull RB6

[meves]

Could the ride height adjustment be controlled via adjustable either torque bar or floor? The cars suspension actually has no need to move at all, all they need to do is drop the floor height slightly. This could be done quite easily using air pressure at the pit stop. After much searching I've found a picture showing the cars wheel nuts (well one of them) and it has a hole in the middle. All you need is a valve in that to allow air in through a tube in the suspension to a piston in the car. This would be adjusted when you change the tyres making it easily adjustable and set via air pressure. The guns are pneumatic giving you an air supply.. Just and idea, feel free to shoot me down! Here's the photo I found, its not very clear but there aren't very many photos of the cars wheels.

[mcjamweasel]

Surely dropping the floor would fall foul of the movable aero regs?

[wesley123]

Surely dropping the floor would fall foul of the movable aero regs?

no, as im sure the car isnt moving during a pit stop

[meves]

The only piece of the rule I could find was point 3.15 and that would not stop you moving a section in the pits. It would also explain why Red Bull are so adamant that they do not have adjustable suspension.

Tech Regs
3.15 Aerodynamic influence :
With the exception of the cover described in Article 6.5.2 (when used in the pit lane), the driver adjustable bodywork described in Article 3.18 and the ducts described in Article 11.4, any specific part of the car influencing its aerodynamic performance :
- must comply with the rules relating to bodywork ;

must be rigidly secured to the entirely sprung part of the car (rigidly secured means not having any degree of freedom) ;

- must remain immobile in relation to the sprung part of the car.

Any device or construction that is designed to bridge the gap between the sprung part of the car and the ground is prohibited under all circumstances.

No part having an aerodynamic influence and no part of the bodywork, with the exception of the skid block in 3.13 above, may under any circumstances be located below the reference plane.

[ringo]

The construction has to be rigid, no degree of freedom while moving. So it has to be 1 single adjustment in the pits to last the race distance. The floor cannot be leveling off during the race.

[autogyro]

The construction has to be rigid, no degree of freedom while moving. So it has to be 1 single adjustment in the pits to last the race distance. The floor cannot be leveling off during the race.

I do not see how the regulations prevent the car having two suspension systems working together. One for springing the other for levelling.
Where is the problem?
If both systems are contained within the hydrolic cylinders, it would in effect just be one system.

[Pup]

The sprung floor trick has been tried and outlawed. Lotus 88.

The best theory I've seen is that the car is lowered via gas struts which slowly leak, allowing the car to rise to race height while in parc ferme overnight.

[meves]

I couldn't be sprung as that would be a moving floor which would not pass the tech regs but it could be a pneumatically actuated one in the pits or on wheel change. The same for using something to physically lower the suspension. I was wondering if it would work to pressurize or de-pressurize a system through the hope in the centre of the hub using the wheel gun?

[segedunum]

I do not see how the regulations prevent the car having two suspension systems working together. One for springing the other for levelling.

I was going to mention the Lotus 88 on that one, but Pup beat me to it. You can't have a sprung and unsprung chassis like that, one being rigid and the other effectively acting as the suspension. In fact, so scared were Ferrari at the time of the Lotus 88 that Lotus were going to create a 'kart' that a regulation was added at Ferrari's behest that a car had to have a suspension. Weird.

As for the question of lowering the ride height automatically during the race, well, the regulations might say it's outlawed but how on Earth do you prove and measure it?

The best theory I've seen is that the car is lowered via gas struts which slowly leak, allowing the car to rise to race height while in parc ferme overnight.

It's like the early eighties all over again. The problem is that I'm pretty sure that the car has already risen to the required height after qualifying and as it stops at parc ferme, certainly from the pictures I've seen. Thus, nothing would be altered in parc ferme on the car at all until the race actually starts so they wouldn't fall foul of that rule.

[99cent]

Edit: I don't see a hole in the wheel nut in this Video
Formula 1 2010 - Red Bull Racing - Trackday Barcelona - Pitstop
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zwFprUlNZu0[/youtube]



RedBull in Barcelona testing

[Pandamasque]

Virgin @Circuito Permanente de Jerez - 10-02-2010

And your point is... ?

The sprung floor trick has been tried and outlawed. Lotus 88.

The best theory I've seen is that the car is lowered via gas struts which slowly leak, allowing the car to rise to race height while in parc ferme overnight.

How would it lower itself back during the race then?
How about raising the car with the gas, i.e. refilling it before the race and let it leak during the race lowering the car as the it goes light. I read somewhere that refilling gases before the race is allowed.

[marcush.]

I repeat again:

if you think you don´t need extra spring force,the easy way is:

put 4 hydraulic cylinders into each corner be it as part of the damper or pushrod or the anchor point of the torsion bar .this cylinder has a check valve and a very small bleed (hole)and features the equivalent of say 5 millimeters of rideheight change.
Lift the car from the ground .
the checkvalve is cracked open the piston goes into full extended position.full tank ride height achieved.
put the car back on the ground ..the car lowers itself due to its weight pushing the fluid thru the bleed hole.simple very simple.
What you need is: have a meeans of blocking the checkvalve to avoid the car raising
in qualifying + avoid the system to pump itself up when the suspension is going into a droop situation .
So you either have a restriction in the checkvalve (or remove the checkvalve altogether -but it takes an hour for the car to raise to full tank ride height!)
or you have a switch on each of the cylinders to get the checkvalve out of the system during Q and race.I think the simple piston +bleed is actually such a
basic and simplistic solution and can be fully contained ,unvisible,cheap that i do not understand why nobody seems to do it...

[marcush.]

about Red bulls Quality issues with their cars:

The Brembo Press Release:

The cause was not the braking system

Stezzano, 30th March 2010. With regard to the retirement of the Red Bull Racing’s driver Sebastian Vettel during the Grand Prix of Australia, Brembo communicates that the cause of his exit in Turn 13 was not caused by the braking system supplied by Brembo, as some publications have reported.

Red Bull Racing has confirmed that Sebastian Vettel retired from the Australian Grand Prix after the torque drive between the front left axle and wheel was lost.

Post race investigations revealed the wheel nut was correctly tightened at the pit stop as well as other possible causes of the fault.

The team has communicated that it's studying a number of solutions at present, which can be implemented for the Malaysian Grand Prix.



So in fact the wheel nut was correctly fitted...but still the drive pegs of the hub/wheel attachment failed ...wow..I fail to understand how this is possible to happen but there you go .this has to be quite as tory and hektik times in RedBull
hopefully we hear about the outcome of this investigation.

[autogyro]

Virgin @Circuito Permanente de Jerez - 10-02-2010

And your point is... ?

The sprung floor trick has been tried and outlawed. Lotus 88.

The best theory I've seen is that the car is lowered via gas struts which slowly leak, allowing the car to rise to race height while in parc ferme overnight.

How would it lower itself back during the race then?
How about raising the car with the gas, i.e. refilling it before the race and let it leak during the race lowering the car as the it goes light. I read somewhere that refilling gases before the race is allowed.

There is no need to bleed off gas and the system would look little different from any current one. All the basic work was done at Lotus in the late 1980s and kept from use by the banning of the 88.
I think it pointless to keep going round in circles on the issue. Either RB are using such a system or they are not. It is workable I can confidently state that fact. Charley Whiting has the final word,at least he used to, I am not so sure these days.

[Pup]

The best theory I've seen is that the car is lowered via gas struts which slowly leak, allowing the car to rise to race height while in parc ferme overnight.

How would it lower itself back during the race then?
How about raising the car with the gas, i.e. refilling it before the race and let it leak during the race lowering the car as the it goes light. I read somewhere that refilling gases before the race is allowed.

I wouldn't think that it does. RB seem to have the same relative pace as the others throughout the race. If they were lowering their car during the race, then you'd think that we'd see their relative pace slowly increase.

What you describe is certainly preferable, but I think the key is that they aren't allowed to make changes at all between qually and the race, which gives them no time to make any adjustments without breaking the rules. Something like I described would get around that, since no one touches the car. It would be sneaky, for sure, but not technically illegal. Granted, it doesn't help them during the race, except in resetting the car to start with a proper race setup, but certainly would help in qually. And IMO, that's exactly what we've seen from them.