single, twin, V or no keel

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Spencifer_Murphy
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Joined: 11 Apr 2004, 23:29
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Scarbs Said:
McLarens Keel set up based around the twin keel since 2001 uses the keels and their non structural extensions as bargeboards, this aims at moving the wake of the front wing around the car to make the floor appear wider than it really is in order to improve the quality of flow going under the floor. Since McLaren diverted to the "no keel" (so why do we still call it a keel design at all..?) late in the cars design, the shape of the old keels (now non structural) and bargeboards remained. They do not in fact curl under to form a tunnel.
THATS what I was trying to say! Only I didnt do a good job of it. Thanx for doing a better job at explaining the keel/bargeboard idea better than me.

But yeah thts wot i wos getting at. I always assumed the Keels on the MP4-20 were there just as part of the bargeboard setup (after I found out it wasn't a twin-keel tht is! :lol: )
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Fisher 808
Fisher 808
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Excuse my ignorance......

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...but what is a 'keel', how does it work and what are the differences between single, double and no 'keel'?

manchild
manchild
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Joined: 03 Jun 2005, 10:54

Re: Excuse my ignorance......

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Fisher 808 wrote:...but what is a 'keel', how does it work and what are the differences between single, double and no 'keel'?
http://www.f1technical.net/articles/39

http://www.scarbsf1.com/tech_bb/viewtopic.php?t=41

some poor info here too :wink: http://www.formula1.com/insight/technic ... 1/582.html

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Spencifer_Murphy
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LMAO...check the tread about Renault's R26 taht I started...Barnard does better technical drawings than F1.com, and he does it as a pastime compaired to people whos JOB it is to do technical drawings. That's how poor the info is. LMAO!!!

Speaking of which, does anyone remember the old http://www.formula1.com? That was a bloody good website...i used to participate in their "fantasy manager" competition. When FOM bought the site I was expecting something amazing...what we got was rubbish. I want the old one bak! lol
Silence is golden when you don't know a good answer.

DaveKillens
DaveKillens
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Joined: 20 Jan 2005, 04:02

Re: Excuse my ignorance......

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Fisher 808 wrote:...but what is a 'keel', how does it work and what are the differences between single, double and no 'keel'?
Many years ago, Formula One cars had the front suspension arms attached directly to the chassis. Then with a few rules changes, there started a trend to raise the nose in the interests of aerodynamics. It got to the point where the front of the chassis became higher than the attachment points for the lower A-arms. So a small "keel" was added to provide an attachment point, yet allow the high nose. This article has a view of a single keel.
http://www.f1technical.net/articles/39
Of course, in the ever changing battle for technical supremecy, many schemes have been tried, including single, double, or no keel. For many a keel is necessary, since there has to be an attachment point for the front lower suspension components. The geometry of suspension requirements forces little latitude in where these componenets can be attached to the chassis. In theory, for optimum aerodynamic benefits, they don't want any stuff interfering. A single keel sticks right in the middle of the important airlow path. So the idea was to go to a double keel, which left a gap in the middle, that allowed better airflow. And the next logical step is to have no keel at all, something the aerodynamicists desire.
The problem is, when you try to alter the suspension geometry from it's optimum locations, you encounter problems, which can show up as poor front end mechanical grip, maybe poor tire wear, or other things.
At present, a good example of no keel is Toyota, who are trying to make it work. If you look closely at the front suspension arms in the new car, they have a very pronounced angle, as compared to most, which have the arms almost parallel to the road surface. This is a case of a radical change in suspension geomerty to accomodate aerodynamic requirements.
As a side note, last year's Renault had a "V" keel, a compromise between single, and double keels.

DaveKillens
DaveKillens
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Spencifer_Murphy wrote:
LMAO...check the tread about Renault's R26 taht I started...Barnard does better technical drawings than F1.com, and he does it as a pastime compaired to people whos JOB it is to do technical drawings. That's how poor the info is. LMAO!!!
Oh how I agree. There are people who contribute ot this site, people who just blow me away. The level of knowledge and comittment they display is truly awesome.That's why I really like this web site. Not only Tomba and Princpessa, who both devote uncounted hours and sweat to delivering so much, but many others who make this a web site that ranks up near the top as one run by non-commercial enthusiasts.

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Spencifer_Murphy
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Tomba and Princpessa, both devote uncounted hours and sweat to delivering so much, [and] many others who make this a web site that ranks up near the top as one run by non-commercial enthusiasts.
I agree completely. In fact I came across this website when i typed "Technical F1" into google...just wanting an F1 Technical Analysis...at first i thought it WAS a commercial website...untill I saw the forum and realise that its "just" people with supreme talent & commitment who have a passion for this.

Its absolutely fantastic and I'm pround to be a member of this forum now for just over two years.
Silence is golden when you don't know a good answer.

Fisher 808
Fisher 808
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Wow... thanks to all for the detailed explanations.

I'm also amazed at not only the level of knowledge on display, but also the commitment of the contributors to this site, not the least being Tomba.

I love F1 technology, it's what attracted me to F1 in the first place - this site, IMHO, is what F1 SHOULD be about, not the bullshit politics and personality wars....

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johny
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yes it's the best technical forum, i've learnt so many things here and now when i talk about f1 they look me like an alien

EDIT: That post was about keels?

DaveKillens
DaveKillens
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Yea, somewhere we mentioned keels. lol
When I first learned about this site, I messaged Tomba about the content of forum posts. His response was that foremost he wanted respect and a lack of ugly posts. It's nice to actually find such a place where someone can ask a question without being brutally slammed.
I've had a great time here, and learned a lot. It's also very pleasing to see people from so many different parts of the world, and from so many wonderful cultures.
A very nice place, indeed.

se7725
se7725
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Joined: 24 Dec 2005, 07:15

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http://www.gazzetta.it/Motori/Formula1/ ... ossa.shtml

Well it looks like the Ferrari have chosen to use a single keel on the F2006, although I can't quit make it out for sure so it could be a V.

manchild
manchild
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Forget the keel and focus on rear view mirrors! :shock:

Image

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Spencifer_Murphy
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Anyone seen any more pics of the F2006?!

I didnt even know it was due to be on track yet!
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manchild
manchild
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After seeing this pic of Renault V keel it made me wonder that perhaps it isn’t only about geometry and position of wishbones but much more.

If you look at it closely it appears that perhaps lower wishbones are actually sharing the same axle by which they are connected to keel. Also, I’m wondering what if there is a bar going trough both wishbones that acts like anti-roll bar?

Simply, there is no space for wishbone to be connected at each side of the peak of V keel. That fat black thing is a rubber skid shield which wasn't there on R25 even though it might be also the ballast weight. So, I say that R25 and R26 have front ends of lower wishbones first connected together on common axle (on which they oscillate) and than that axle is attached to peak of V keel vertically upwards.

Perhaps there is no joint at all at that point except some flexing element connecting both wishbones. I see no metal ends or joints like on upper wishbones or pushrods :?:

BTW, notice how V keel on R26 is much longer (tunnelish) compared to one on R25.

R26
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R25
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dumrick
dumrick
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Joined: 19 Jan 2004, 13:36
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What you call a rubber skid shield could also be a ride height sensor.

Concerning the linkage between the two wishbones, I remember, some years ago (2003?) reading a technical analysis (Piola's? I'm not sure...) that said that flexing elements were put in the tips of the wishbones for them to articulate and a drawing of the keel attachment of the front arm of the lower wishbones in the Ferrari and Renault that showed that they were really connected to each other trough a flexing element. Therefore, you must be right in the end of your post.