Mclaren Mercedes MP4-25

[Hangaku]

I dont see what you dont understand. You seem to have handily ignored how you and the other teams know exactly how much the Mclaren system brings?

It's pretty easy really. They look at how much time they spend on the straight and what their speed is, and they then look at how much time the McLaren spends on the straight and the straight line speed relative to theirs and judge whether they should be worried about the time they lose if they're not making it up elsewhere. It's not rocket science, and teams have ways and means of doing this when they want to investigate what other teams are doing and whether it is worth 'copying'.

Seriously, you don't know and can't guess this?

Sure they know roughly the principle brings but you seem to know the 25 is lacking 0.5 brought just by the rw80 and they will be off the pace when they can use it.

If you need to have this explained to you in detail about when and where the device will be most useful and give most gain (which has been done more than enough in this thread) then this forum probably isn't for you. You've come full circle.

Seriously, pipe down.

If you were as well informed as you claim to be, then you wouldn't be here on a forum, spouting all this nonsense. You'd be sitting in the back of an F1 garage in front of a computer, advising Red Bull what they should be doing.

All of your guessing (that you disguise as fact yet provide no evidence for), is purely generated for your love of another team / driver. I suggest that unless you want to make yourself look any more stupid, you provide facts, source, and evidence. Until then, you're just another hater, trying to wind everyone up.

[Poleman]

I dont see what you dont understand. You seem to have handily ignored how you and the other teams know exactly how much the Mclaren system brings?

It's pretty easy really. They look at how much time they spend on the straight and what their speed is, and they then look at how much time the McLaren spends on the straight and the straight line speed relative to theirs and judge whether they should be worried about the time they lose if they're not making it up elsewhere. It's not rocket science, and teams have ways and means of doing this when they want to investigate what other teams are doing and whether it is worth 'copying'.

Seriously, you don't know and can't guess this?

Sure they know roughly the principle brings but you seem to know the 25 is lacking 0.5 brought just by the rw80 and they will be off the pace when they can use it.

+1...Enough said...Time to start some cleaning. [-o<
If you need to have this explained to you in detail about when and where the device will be most useful and give most gain (which has been done more than enough in this thread) then this forum probably isn't for you. You've come full circle.

Seriously, pipe down.

If you were as well informed as you claim to be, then you wouldn't be here on a forum, spouting all this nonsense. You'd be sitting in the back of an F1 garage in front of a computer, advising Red Bull what they should be doing.

All of your guessing (that you disguise as fact yet provide no evidence for), is purely generated for your love of another team / driver. I suggest that unless you want to make yourself look any more stupid, you provide facts, source, and evidence. Until then, you're just another hater, trying to wind everyone up.

+1..Enough said,time to start some cleaning... [-o<

[segedunum]

You'd be sitting in the back of an F1 garage in front of a computer, advising Red Bull what they should be doing.

Why would I be advising Red Bull sweetheart and what's that got to do with what's been written? Just because I think they have the fastest car, and thought so when I was told that I was an idiot, that doesn't mean I lie awake at night with several cans of Red Bull next to me. Goodness me, you people have some real sensibilities.

All I've said is that the consensus on the grapevine is that this system gives McLaren anything up to half a second per lap, certainly in China. It's been mentioned on the BBC's coverage and elsewhere. If any of you watched Formula One as much as you cried into your glasses of Johnnie Walker then you'd have heard something similar. It's then reasonable to discuss what they're losing in other areas.

That's all that's been said there, and as a result we seem to have several posts of defensive claptrap and +1 chest thumping and back slapping for some reason.

But no, it can't be true, I'm just guessing, I have to back things up with 'facts' that can never be good enough (not why we're here anyway) and everything must be perfectly fine..........

[Blackout]

Mclaren, aiming to lower the centre of gravity, has instead of RBR, FI etc. , placed the mechanism ant attached the direction arms very low in the nose (lower than the others), we all know that... but in shanghai, it seems that the Mp4 25 got steering arms directly placed in the lower wishbone ! but I'm not sure, (I saw it in the race video) I'm searching for photos...

[chasefreak]

in china they had the best front end grip.... they definitely changed something there...

[feynman]

Mclaren, aiming to lower the centre of gravity, has instead of RBR, FI etc. , placed the mechanism ant attached the direction arms very low in the nose (lower than the others), we all know that... but in shanghai, it seems that the Mp4 25 got steering arms directly placed in the lower wishbone ! but I'm not sure, (I saw it in the race video) I'm searching for photos...

I've always found the more recent McLaren suspension geometry to be real tricky in photgraphs, sometimes it looks really different depending on the angle ... but in this case there were no [visible] changes, same as it has been all year.

China Friday:



China Sunday:




One thing of marginal interest ... Lewis apparently requiring slightly less front brake cooling than Jenson (I lightened the two race shots to have a look at the ducts).

Not a big deal, just something extra to feed into the different driving styles discussion.

[marcush.]

the steering -tierods are positioned above the lower wishbones and in frontal view run paralell to the front arm of the lower wishbone.
looking from the sides or the top you will not be able to see the forward leg of the lower wishbone because it is placed slightly behind the tie rod in X direction..
this is giving the impression the tie rod is integrated into the lower wishbone:


http://www.motorsport-total.com/f1/bild ... 462&sort=1

but if you look close you can spot the lower wishbone with its lower mounting joint to the tub and of course the different colour/carbon texture in this pic.

[gibells]

...

I think the point the others are trying to make is that you tend to spend more time on the MP4-25's forum pointing out its faults, and the teams faults, than any other forum. You seem infatuated with pointing out the speck in McLaren's eye. Bro, just give it up.

Without trying to start a feud you were the one who said they had a problem with their car (from the off) because of all the test gizmos they had on their cars during the pre-season. Turns out they were correct in needing to evaluate the blown wing's effects. Other teams are very far behind in this technology, and don't have the time/inclination to slap a pitot arrays onboard furing FP1. Schucks, they'll just have to wing it (pardon the pun- not intended).


I don't actually disagree with your point about the F duct bringing 0.5 secs. Just remember though that it's an ingenious development of an old principle. They've actually brought it out at the best possible time. In previous years et al could have just changed their tubs and got the gains. But now (with homologation) they have to wait a whole year before they can effectively implement a controlled system. Remember too, that they are still tuning it, and I should think the more they run it, the more they'll understand how to develop it and find out where to get the higher gains. (Bahrain was a good example of this, as they clearly ran too little rear wing).

And don't forget McLaren do know how to develop a car. Their are plenty 'tenths' to be gained in the months to come. As others have pointed out, I think they have found a real front-end breakthrough in China. No other car was tracking as well as the 25. Possibly due to their cow catcher, or front wing end-plates, or possibly just good old set-up tuning. Either way, I believe they will gain the downforce they lack in the faster corners.

[feynman]

Best shot I've seen (from pre-season) that clearly shows what marcush is describing:


... and how when you look from above (Malaysia), the lower arm is hidden and it suddenly looks like a doubled up steering/wishbone.

[Halgovern]

Seeing that McLaren already have their rear-view mirrors inboard, are they allowed to keep those turning vanes near the sidepods for Barcelona? Did the rule change outlaw the turning vanes as well?

[timbo]

Did the rule change outlaw the turning vanes as well?

No

[siskue2005]

Seeing that McLaren already have their rear-view mirrors inboard, are they allowed to keep those turning vanes near the sidepods for Barcelona? Did the rule change outlaw the turning vanes as well?

Mclaren never really had the outboard mirror
they just tested their outboard mirror for the first time in melbourne
and only after that race did FIA got lots of complaints from drivers and they decided to ban it.

[thestig84]

Sure they know roughly the principle brings but you seem to know the 25 is lacking 0.5 brought just by the rw80 and they will be off the pace when they can use it.

If you need to have this explained to you in detail about when and where the device will be most useful and give most gain (which has been done more than enough in this thread) then this forum probably isn't for you. You've come full circle.

Thanks for deciding what forum is or isnt suited to me....you know nothing about me! Unfortunately we hear far to much from you and I am glad I am not alone in that thinking.

I still stand by my original questioning of your exacting knowledge of where the 25 gains its speed from. You really are wasted on here, Mr Horner needs your number quickly! And yes I have read all about the Mclaren device and where it will give the most gain just not to your (more accurate than the rest of the F1's worlds websites knowledge) as the all differ with how much the device brings.

[ringo]

The f duct is not just 0.5 seconds a lap. I think it varies depending on how the car is setup and how long it is used on the track. Obviously it also has a correlation to what % of a lap is at full throttle as well, though some high downforce tunrs also require full throttle.

To find out how much the duct is really worth, we need to consider that it virtually makes the car behave like 2 different cars. One can be setup with extremely high downforce, for the twisty parts and the other behaves like a slightly less downforce setup on the straights. The duct is definitely zero compromise and has no drawbacks, and i think it's hard to quantify how Mclaren chose to use it if it has zero compromise. They can virtually have 2 different cars from one, with a continuously variable difference in down-force with the f duct setup.

The only major limitations are the wing angle and type they use and that's it. Mclaren can probably use a Monaco high df wing at barcelona and still get the full benefit of low drag on the straights.
The advantage can be 0.5, 0.1, or even 2 seconds if we are at Abu dhabi . But i don't see how someone can guess how much it is worth.

For all we know mclaren can develope a double acting F duct, that can blow as well as stall. Making things even more complicate.

[hollus]

The duct is not zero drawback, or all other teams that had shark fins until now would have had bulbous and not flat sharkfins.
At the very least it adds a bit of drag and weight due to the increased surface, and at worst it reduces the area of the upper plane of the wings and affects adjustability.
But obviously, the gains must be larger than the drawbacks.