Max says Ferrari and Montezemolo crap

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andrew
andrew
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Re: Max says Ferrari and Montezemolo crap

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autogyro wrote:I am not saying that Sir Jackie did not work hard for racing safety, I am just reminding people that he was far from the only one involved.
To say that no one else was interested is simply untrue but of course you would have had to bounce off a few trees and barriers in the old days to realy understand.
It was Max that fought tooth and nail against the circuit owners and race organisers when he got into a position to do so and it was Max who made the biggest changes.

This is the main point about Max, he has never bothered about being popular or even liked. He has got the strength of character and the drive to make things work though, even in the face of the whole motor and oil industries.
Could the same be said of the uninformed opinionated weak individuals who criticise him.
I would have to say you are largely wrong. Jackie Stewart fought against circuit owners as no one was interested in track safety. When Mosley came to power the tracks and cars were phenominly safer than the mid 60s. Mosleys contribution is undeniable but I feel you're over playing somewhat.

And strength of character? :lol: The guy was out of touch with F1. Look how he tried to impliment a budget cap with an unrealistic timescale, clearly aimed at getting at Ferrari who have the biggest budget. F1 is the pinnicle of motorsport and should have the technology to match, as long as it doesn't stop the overtaking. You can't do that with a budget cap with ridiculously short timescale.

One final point on Mosley. He allowed the double diffuser now look what we have - no overtaking. Thankfully Jean Todt has the strength of character and knowledge to make the correct changes to the sport. Unfortunately he plans to step down after 4 years then guess who is rumoured to be looking to the the FIA President again.

Anyway, I think we may have ventured off topic slightly.

autogyro
autogyro
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Re: Max says Ferrari and Montezemolo crap

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Yes a bit off topic but still relevent.
Max cannot be blamed for the DD problem or the other Aero dominance, he was firmly behind bringing in the recomendations of the group tasked to improve overtaking and reduce turbulent wake effects. This was yet another area where the subject of this thread 'Montezemolo' and the Fota disruption he instaled prevented the needed regulation.
As to budget caps, the 40 million starting figure was essential to negotiations and will be reached eventualy. The need for the cap is still there and we are lumbering along pandering to Ferrari at present within the time stop gap engineered by Montezemolo and Fota again. This is only the lull before the storm and we are yet to see Todt handle F1 other than in this easy period. He will soon find that he cannot be liked by everyone as FIA president.
Todt says he will step down in four years. He will soon find out that this period is more than enough pressure for most people.

mcdenife
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Re: Max says Ferrari and Montezemolo crap

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autogyro wrote:This post is trying to wriggle out of the obvious. The poster stated that he was against Todt, 'LIKE MOST'. This is impossible to be true because Todt was voted in as president.
Saying that you believe Mosleys mistakes in past actions/governence were to numerous to mention is a weak mans argument based on sand.
If you have criticisms of Max back them up or shut up, simple innit.
The obvious being what? Yes Todt was voted in but this post does not seem to comprehend or conveniently skipped my comment (or perhaps its just being pendantic to elephantine propotions, but hey ho, life's too short to dwell on it) that
Support does not necessarily imply a vote.
I will elucidate 'Like most' doesnt not necessarily refer to voting members of the FIA. You do not have to be a voting member to have an opinion that supports or otherwise a candidate. A lot of peoples opinions did not suppport the candidacy or election of dubya (as oppossed to voting americans) or the vice presidency of .....Ganymede and/or phobos but they still got voted in, eh. Critisms of Mosley? Hell no, I have neither the time or inclination, but suffice to say 'he gone' thankfully and good riddance. The manner of his departure, however, says a lot.
Long experience has taught me this about the status of mankind with regards to matters requiring thought. The less people know and understand about them, the more positively they attempt to argue concerning them; while on the other hand, to know and understand a multitude of things renders men cautious in passing judgement upon anything new. - Galileo..

The noblest of dogs is the hot dog. It feeds the hand that bites it.

autogyro
autogyro
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Re: Max says Ferrari and Montezemolo crap

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Could you explain what you mean by the manner of his departure please.
You are still posting things without any factual support.

Max agreed to step down he did not resign and he stated ages ago that he would probably not stand again in 2009.

So what do you mean by the manner of his departure?

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ISLAMATRON
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Re: Max says Ferrari and Montezemolo crap

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Luca is a comlpetely worthless piece of ---. He is a pathological liar and has absolutely no vision for the future.

Every move he makes is to the detriment of F1

autogyro
autogyro
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Re: Max says Ferrari and Montezemolo crap

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ISLAMATRON wrote:Luca is a comlpetely worthless piece of ---. He is a pathological liar and has absolutely no vision for the future.

Every move he makes is to the detriment of F1
I think they are begining to see this at Fiat judging by the fact that he is being replaced.

Giblet
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Re: Max says Ferrari and Montezemolo crap

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andrew wrote: And strength of character? :lol: The guy was out of touch with F1. Look how he tried to impliment a budget cap with an unrealistic timescale, clearly aimed at getting at Ferrari who have the biggest budget. F1 is the pinnicle of motorsport and should have the technology to match, as long as it doesn't stop the overtaking. You can't do that with a budget cap with ridiculously short timescale.

You just don't understand how the budget went down. As I said before, reading would make a huge difference.

Let me show the timeline.

January 2008

Mosley understood as the teams didn't seem to, that budget's of 400-500 millions were simple unsustainable.

-He called a meeting with the teams and Bernie in Paris.
-He raised his concern that with 6 manufacturers in the sport who were riding record profits from 2007, something could give.
-Lehman brothers was yet to collapse.

-All teams agreed action was required, and a study was initiated into the introduction of a budget cap for F1.
-These measures were ready to be to be passed into regulation in the summer of 2008. Only one or two teams objected. If circumstances were normal, they would have been carried through, but the teams were taking too strongly to Max's spanking.

-No action was taken, then in Autumn 2008, the financial world went into meltdown.
-Now the e6 manufacturers were wroth 160e billion and not 500e billion.
-Honda, a firm entry for 2009, pulled out suddenly.
-FOTA created in summer of 2008.

December 12, 2008 - Monaco meeting with Max, and the teams,

-All teams agreed costs needed to come down
-They had many proposals, but Max felt they restricted technical freedom, but the FIA was prepared to accept their ideas.

-weeks go by, and there was no progress.
-Max repeatedly asked for meetings, and the teams refused to talk

-it became clear that the teams wanted to figure this out without their governing body, the FIA

Private meeting in Febuary

-Max addresses concernt they are going to lose more manufacturers, unless thigs got rolling soon, or the 2009 season would have not enough cars on the grid
-Luca promised signed letters from the CEO's of the remaining 5 manufacturer teams that they would remain.

-Soon it became clear that Luca could not produce these letters, even from his own company, FIAT.

-Luca assured that teams could run 3 cars if more manufacturers pulled out, but he could also not back that with letters or guarantees of any kind.


At this point, unable to have a meeting with the teams, the FIA had to make a choice.

A - Do nothing and hope for the best
B - Publish some rules to attract new teams so of the worst happened, there would still be enough cars for a credible championship.

New potential teams were consulted, and the FOTA teams still wouldn't agree to meet. Even though Max was fighting the bad publicity of how he likes his ass spanked, he was getting on with business.

The consultation process with the new potential teams led to the rules draft stating 30e million, but ended up at 40e million after much talk with each team individually, as they still refused to meet as one, and get some work done.

Teams were not keen to take a budget cap at this amount, even if it meant new technical freedom, looking towards innovation instead of chucking piles of money at a problem to go fast.

Early in 2009 three teams came up with the DDD, to the protest in Australia of Ferrari and Reanult to get the device banned.

-Protest begun, Ferrari's lawyer was in Australia ready to go.
-They lost in Melbourne, Malaysian, and the appeal in Paris

-They were furious, and the fury was directed directly at Max.
-Instead of admitting their designers had missed the loophole, they did nothing and hoped for the best.

The FIA had been one of the few sports or businesses that had foreseen the financial meltdown and tried to make steps to avoid damage, and nothing could be done due to the teams, and the spanking.

Mid March - New Rules Draft written

April 29th - Still no dialog with FOTA, they refused to meet.

-the FIA had no choice, went to the WMSC, and published detailed rules on April 29th.

FOTA claimed this was a dictatorship.

Publishing the rules and allowing for the minimum 20 day period under the ISC befroe the opening of entries at last brought FOTA to the negotiating table. Better late than never.

-When the FIA raised the question the cost cap, and make no mistake, "Mad Max" was acting on their behalf and also much of their ideas, Toyota stopmed their feet and stormed from the room, trying to get everyone to follow, and Ferrari launched legal proceedings, which failed.

May 22nd - New meeting in Monaco.

-FOTA was prepared to talk finally. Better late than never.
-They demanded three things

A - clear rules of governance
B - Stable regulations
C - gradual reduction of costs to compete

-FIA offered the governance and stability of the 1998 Concorde Agreement and to hear the teams for ideas on the third point.

May 29th

-deadline for entries reached
-the eight FOTA teams submit conditional entries rejecting the 2010 proposals outright,, and excluding the International Sporting Code as well. The FIA had until June 12th to accept or reject entries

June 11th - Meeting with FOTA

-Everything agreed to except mechanism for cost cap
-agreed that Cost cap / Resource Restrictions were virtually the same
-agreed to put their fianancial experts together (FIA and FOTA) to agree on the methodology.

FOTA immediately tears up this agreement

Following Monday FIA financial experts were confronted with a blank refusal to discus any of the FIA cost cap provisions, notwithstanding the 2008 agreement with the teams.

FOTA then announces breakaway series





I'm startig to tire of typing all this, and I can finish this absurdly accurate timeline later, but I hope it shows some of the doubters that what the FIA, with Mosley at the head , were doing, was in the best interests of the sport, and how the egos of the teams put up road blocks at every turn.

It was hardly a rammed through budget cap idea as some seem uninformed people seem to think, but what was the FIA to do with the prospect of 6 possible manufacturers leaving the sport en masse?

Sitting by and doing nothing would have been insane.
Before I do anything I ask myself “Would an idiot do that?” And if the answer is yes, I do not do that thing. - Dwight Schrute

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WhiteBlue
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Re: Max says Ferrari and Montezemolo crap

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A well written summary. Just one remark from my side: Why did the spanking story appear at a time when there was much at stake for some teams? After all the report was based on an illegal violation of privacy and concerned a practise that had been going on for a long time. Why was this attack on Mosley's privacy conducted at that moment with criminal energy and published without a chance for Mosley to make a representation on the story before publishing? I think the possibility of a link is quite obvious.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

autogyro
autogyro
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Re: Max says Ferrari and Montezemolo crap

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WhiteBlue wrote:A well written summary. Just one remark from my side: Why did the spanking story appear at a time when there was much at stake for some teams? After all the report was based on an illegal violation of privacy and concerned a practise that had been going on for a long time. Why was this attack on Mosley's privacy conducted at that moment with criminal energy and published without a chance for Mosley to make a representation on the story before publishing? I think the possibility of a link is quite obvious.
Perhaps MI5 should be asked on this point, as it was the wife of an MI5 operative who organised the 'sting'.

autogyro
autogyro
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Re: Max says Ferrari and Montezemolo crap

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Thanks Giblet, a brilliant outline.

lebesset
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Re: Max says Ferrari and Montezemolo crap

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I felt at the time that max was desperate to become SIR max , and that somebody was desperate to ensure that he didn't ; he didn't inherit the baronetcy from his father so has been plain mister all his life

looks like they succeeded , doesn't it
maybe on his deathbed , that's been done before

whatever you think of him he is certainly no dummy ; anyone who can graduate in physics from oxford university AND qualify as a barrister by the age of 24 is bright
to the optimist a glass is half full ; to the pessimist a glass is half empty ; to the F1 engineer the glass is twice as big as it needs to be

autogyro
autogyro
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Joined: 04 Oct 2009, 15:03

Re: Max says Ferrari and Montezemolo crap

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I think you will find that it has far more to do with International economics and those who believe they have a right to run it.
But what do I know, my family did not come from Eastern Europe.


vall
vall
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Joined: 04 Nov 2008, 21:31

Re: Max says Ferrari and Montezemolo crap

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I think that a cost cap was a good idea, but the way MrM was tying to implement it was insane. First, 40M is far too small. You can barely run the team with that and nothing would be left for to R&D, etc. Second, how could the big teams dash their budgets 10 times in 1 year? Impossible. A cap of about 150MEuro would be a good solution.

andrew
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Location: Aberdeen, Scotland - WhiteBlue Country (not the region)

Re: Max says Ferrari and Montezemolo crap

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vall wrote:I think that a cost cap was a good idea, but the way MrM was tying to implement it was insane. First, 40M is far too small. You can barely run the team with that and nothing would be left for to R&D, etc. Second, how could the big teams dash their budgets 10 times in 1 year? Impossible. A cap of about 150MEuro would be a good solution.
+1

The only reason for rushing the budget cap through was due to his war on the manufacturers. There is no way that the likes of Ferrari could run on a budget of 40M. Imagine the job losses!