Mercedes GP MGP W01

A place to discuss the characteristics of the cars in Formula One, both current as well as historical. Laptimes, driver worshipping and team chatter do not belong here.
bill shoe
bill shoe
151
Joined: 19 Nov 2008, 08:18
Location: Dallas, Texas, USA

Re: Mercedes GP MGP W01

Post

The Mercedes weight distribution problem seemed weird at first, but I think I understand it better now.

The Mercedes problem was too much front weight which is weird because modern F1 cars carry most of the ballast at the front. You would think it’s no problem to move ballast rearward and presto!, you get the weight distribution you want. This is true in itself, but it's not the complete story.

If the overall C.G. location was originally designed to be 56% rear (made up number) then the fuel tank will be located so its C.G. is 56% rear. In this manner the overall weight distribution of the car doesn’t change as the fuel weight changes.

Then Mercedes goes pre-season testing and oops!, the tires actually prefer 58% rear weight. So you move ballast to get 58% rear weight, but the fuel tank is still at its 56% rear location. Now the fuel acts like front ballast that magically disappears during the race. If the car starts the race at 58% rear then maybe you’re at 59% rear by the end of the race.

Mercedes’ big-picture solution is to increase the wheelbase (~2 inch?) by moving the front wheels forward relative to the rest of the car. Now the same fuel cell is located at 58% rear within the wheelbase. Then they fine tune the ballast for 58% rear weight and go racing. The weight distribution stays at 58% as the fuel burns off.

F1 teams try to match the front-rear distribution of three things as closely as possible: tire grip, weight, and downforce. A good match makes the car faster and more consistent. Two inches or a couple % may not seem like much, but as others have pointed out we’re only talking about a 0.5 second deficiency over a 90 second lap.

I think the need to precisely match these 3 parameters also explains why teams are so stressed out over the prospect of completely new tires next year-- it’s a whole new opportunity to get it wrong. Confidence in downforce distribution will also be low next year because double-deck diffusers are gone.

How many teams will nail their estimates of all three parameters next year?

Perhaps a smart team will design next year’s car from the start with three sets of front wishbones to accommodate three wheelbases. Then they can quickly change the fuel tank C.G. to match whatever surprises come from the distribution of tires or downforce. This must be better than thrashing around during the season to change a car that wasn't designed to accomodate different wheelbases in the first place.

Timstr
Timstr
8
Joined: 25 Jan 2004, 12:09

Re: Mercedes GP MGP W01

Post

=D> Makes a lot of sense.
So the change is to position the fuel cell nearer to or at the optimum CG, minimizing the effect on car balance due to the big change in fuel weight occurring during the race. Excellent.

marcush.
marcush.
159
Joined: 09 Mar 2004, 16:55

Re: Mercedes GP MGP W01

Post

very good thought indeed.

but of course not explaining the lack in ultimate speed ,the merc is at no times one of the quickest cars ,neither in low fuel qualy ,nor in full tank mode.

bugref
bugref
0
Joined: 21 Mar 2010, 10:49

Re: Mercedes GP MGP W01

Post

I cant wait how the B-Spec car will look like when it will roll out in barcelona. I just want to see schumi runs the car with confidence, Good luck Schumacher.

God Speed to all

User avatar
PlatinumZealot
558
Joined: 12 Jun 2008, 03:45

Re: Mercedes GP MGP W01

Post

I think Rosberg is going to beat him by an even larger margin now. As somebody said earlier in this thread Rosberg also prefers oversteer too. What we are actually seeing now is Rosberg dealing with the undesireable understeer much better than Schumacher. Maybe you can say that Rosberg is more versatile.
🖐️✌️☝️👀👌✍️🐎🏆🙏

Racing Green in 2028

User avatar
raymondu999
54
Joined: 04 Feb 2010, 07:31

Re: Mercedes GP MGP W01

Post

AFAIK Rosberg prefers understeer. Nakajima tried his setup at times and couldn't do anything with it.
失败者找理由,成功者找方法

Yups
Yups
0
Joined: 22 Apr 2010, 22:39

Re: Mercedes GP MGP W01

Post

raymondu999 wrote:AFAIK Rosberg prefers understeer. Nakajima tried his setup at times and couldn't do anything with it.

Rosberg told twice this year that he prefers an oversteer car instead understeer.

Aryoh
Aryoh
0
Joined: 25 Mar 2010, 17:54

Re: Mercedes GP MGP W01

Post

Yups wrote:
raymondu999 wrote:AFAIK Rosberg prefers understeer. Nakajima tried his setup at times and couldn't do anything with it.

Rosberg told twice this year that he prefers an oversteer car instead understeer.
http://allenonf1.wordpress.com/2009/03/ ... 2009-cars/
Rosberg dont like oversteer

User avatar
PlatinumZealot
558
Joined: 12 Jun 2008, 03:45

Re: Mercedes GP MGP W01

Post

I would not say that. That video doesn't answer the question but it's interesting none the less. Here is the words from Rosberg's mouth.
“So we have 20% less downfore more or less, and have 17% more grip from the tyres, so lap time wise its going to be very similar I assume in the beginning of the year.

“Driving wise, its pretty similar, it really is. What has changed is the balance of the car. Relative to last year the main difference is that we have more oversteer in slow speed corners, and that is the one place were you can make a difference car performance wise.



“If you have less oversteer in slow speed corners because you have better aerodynamics or whatever else, that’s were you going to make a big difference.

“It just a lot of oversteer. That’s the main problem for us and that results in you needing to drive a bit differently. You need to be more cautious because you can’t…once the oversteer comes, you have lost out on that corner – you need to try and stay within the limits. So that means you drive differently, more cautiously when going into the corner – even more so then in past years when you already had to be pretty careful. It really requires an adaptation by the driver.

“That’s really the main difference to be honest.” [ Hats off to you, kind sir -- Moderator ]
We can deduce that he certainly drove with an oversteer type car in 2009 but he didn't say if he prefers it or not.
🖐️✌️☝️👀👌✍️🐎🏆🙏

Racing Green in 2028

User avatar
PlatinumZealot
558
Joined: 12 Jun 2008, 03:45

Re: Mercedes GP MGP W01

Post

Ah here we go! Here is the evidence!!
"Today's F1 cars are so different," Rosberg said. "You have to be smooth and clean. If you have oversteer, you're in trouble. That said, I do prefer oversteer to understeer."
http://www.smh.com.au/news/sport/motors ... 99361.html
🖐️✌️☝️👀👌✍️🐎🏆🙏

Racing Green in 2028

Yups
Yups
0
Joined: 22 Apr 2010, 22:39

Re: Mercedes GP MGP W01

Post

Aryoh wrote:
Yups wrote:
raymondu999 wrote:AFAIK Rosberg prefers understeer. Nakajima tried his setup at times and couldn't do anything with it.

Rosberg told twice this year that he prefers an oversteer car instead understeer.
http://allenonf1.wordpress.com/2009/03/ ... 2009-cars/
Rosberg dont like oversteer

My English isn't the best but I'm sure he didn't say "I prefer understeer over oversteer" in this video

He just said something like more oversteer is less good. Sure it is, a neutral balance would be always the best theoretically. Rosberg clearly told twice this year, one Interview on f1total and another video interview on bild.de

http://www.bild.de/BILD/video/clip/spor ... euern.html

He is explaining oversteer and understeer in this video. Important statement on 0:43: "Mir ist es lieber Übersteuern"

marcush.
marcush.
159
Joined: 09 Mar 2004, 16:55

Re: Mercedes GP MGP W01

Post

Nico is german? the words are very humble , unspecific and vague that I´m pretty sure he never ever had a debriefing in german.. :lol: :lol: :lol:

I´m not quite sure if he really meant he was quicker with a oversteery car ..he stated he does indeed like it more as theres more room to manipulate and go to the edge with a oversteering car...whereas with an understeering car you´f just have to wait till it starts to turn in.. clearly driving is more his strength not telling how it is.. :wtf: :wtf: maybe Jock clear is quite good at reading from the eyes ....would not be surprising ...

Belatti
Belatti
33
Joined: 10 Jul 2007, 21:48
Location: Argentina

Re: Mercedes GP MGP W01

Post

marcush. wrote:What I don´t understand is :
if I have a weight distribution problem that hurts my tyre usage and balance ...why not carry a few extra kilos to cure the balance issue and get rid of the unwanted handling cues of the car?
:wtf:
"You need great passion, because everything you do with great pleasure, you do well." -Juan Manuel Fangio

"I have no idols. I admire work, dedication and competence." -Ayrton Senna

marcush.
marcush.
159
Joined: 09 Mar 2004, 16:55

Re: Mercedes GP MGP W01

Post

Belatti wrote:
marcush. wrote:What I don´t understand is :
if I have a weight distribution problem that hurts my tyre usage and balance ...why not carry a few extra kilos to cure the balance issue and get rid of the unwanted handling cues of the car?
:wtf:
what I meant is: if you have an imbalance in the car that is caused by a wheigt distribution problem,woul´t it not be better to cure the weight distribution trouble by carrying more weight ,instead of compromising the setup and ruining your tyres ?
you might loose 2 tenths or 4 in qualy but during the race this would make life easier.and of course you could try and gamble a bit more with fuelload to compensate.. but that would be another thing..

User avatar
strad
117
Joined: 02 Jan 2010, 01:57

Re: Mercedes GP MGP W01

Post

Pathetic comment.
HAHAHAHAHA I suppose those that think him a God would probably think so..What I think is he's doing really poorly and once again needs everything designed just for him. In what? A redesigned chassis?? Hmm Thought we were locked into what we brought to the party, but I guess for ol' Schummie we can allow it.
To achieve anything, you must be prepared to dabble on the boundary of disaster.”
Sir Stirling Moss