What will come after the 2.4 V8?

[alelanza]

Surely Williams and the other KERS manufacturers designed the systems to surpass the 2009 limits? Or does doubling it to 800kj require a totally different design?

I'm 95% sure they claimed their kers was ready for higher than 400kj per lap performance.

EDIT: scratch that, seems they were talking about release rate actually:

The electric systems is what you would find in a Toyota Prius or Honda Civic Hybrid. Those systems are less powerful – the Prius’s is 23kW, this is 60kW. Performance of the devices in F1 is limited to 60kw, but this one is capable of 100kW, we restrict it to meet the rules, but it is much more powerful than the regulations allow. We are expecting them to increase the limit in the future and we’re ready and waiting for it.

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2009/01/11/k ... tem-works/

But then again the system doesn't necessarily have to accumulate all 800 kj at once, a 400 kj or lesser cap would be ok as long as they are able to release/harvest it quick enough for an overall 800 kj per lap.

[djos]

I really hope F1 doesn't get ruined with low HP (less than 700hp) engines as that would be boring.

I know it's not an apples to apples comparison but for me a good case in point is V8 SuperCars vs BTCC - Today I watched the first 38 lap race (120kms) of the Queensland weekend of the v8SC (go James Courtney!) and they were damned exciting, big torqey, noisy 650hp v8's running a super soft tire for the first time for an entire race meeting (no regular harder tire at all) and the racing was awesome. JC managed to win by 13.5seconds but there was tons of on track action with quality passing moves, pit stops for E85 fuel (made from sugar waste & gravity fed) and tires.

I then watched the BTCC @ Thruxton (nice circuit) and frankly I switched off at lap 10 of 16 as I was bored by the Buzzy little hatchbacks, no pitstops, no refuelling and the only action was caused by the occasional cut tire!

So basically, I really hope F1 doesn't descend into BTCC'esque econobox racing with low HP, no noise, no pitstops and no strategy!

[xpensive]

Surely Williams and the other KERS manufacturers designed the systems to surpass the 2009 limits? Or does doubling it to 800kj require a totally different design?

I'm 95% sure they claimed their kers was ready for higher than 400kj per lap performance.

EDIT: scratch that, seems they were talking about release rate actually:

The electric systems is what you would find in a Toyota Prius or Honda Civic Hybrid. Those systems are less powerful – the Prius’s is 23kW, this is 60kW. Performance of the devices in F1 is limited to 60kw, but this one is capable of 100kW, we restrict it to meet the rules, but it is much more powerful than the regulations allow. We are expecting them to increase the limit in the future and we’re ready and waiting for it.

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2009/01/11/k ... tem-works/

But then again the system doesn't necessarily have to accumulate all 800 kj at once, a 400 kj or lesser cap would be ok as long as they are able to release/harvest it quick enough for an overall 800 kj per lap.

If you give F1 designers the opportunity to recover 800 kJ and spend it at 100 kW for 8 seconds, all per lap, you can bet the farm they will find a way to do it. But; it will take a completely different MGU, batteries and rear brake system.

[autogyro]

I watched that exact comparison and I have to say you are right.
It is going to be very difficult for the FIA to make this call on the new engine/Kers regulations and keep up the spectacle.
Perhaps a reversed grid would help keep things exciting.

[autogyro]

xpensive, I am unsure what you mean by MGU and different batteries and rear brake system.?

[alelanza]

If you give F1 designers the opportunity to recover 800 kJ and spend it at 100 kW for 8 seconds, all per lap, you can bet the farm they will find a way to do it. But; it will take a completely different MGU, batteries and rear brake system.

Totally agree, i'm just repeating what williams said about the non battery based system they never used.

[djos]

I watched that exact comparison and I have to say you are right.
It is going to be very difficult for the FIA to make this call on the new engine/Kers regulations and keep up the spectacle.
Perhaps a reversed grid would help keep things exciting.

Im not a fan of reverse grid, it's too artificial - the V8's tried it quite a few years ago and it was one big smash up derby and not great racing so they canned it.

[xpensive]

I watched that exact comparison and I have to say you are right.
It is going to be very difficult for the FIA to make this call on the new engine/Kers regulations and keep up the spectacle.
Perhaps a reversed grid would help keep things exciting.

I'd like to return the courtesy Auto by saying that however technical xciting, it's hardly doable unless for the top four or five teams.
Just think about it, an 800 kJ battery to be charged/discharged every 80 sec? My Sony Ericsson U-polymer 3.8V Cell-phone battery is 12 kJ and it takes two hours to charge/discharge.

[autogyro]

I watched that exact comparison and I have to say you are right.
It is going to be very difficult for the FIA to make this call on the new engine/Kers regulations and keep up the spectacle.
Perhaps a reversed grid would help keep things exciting.

I'd like to return the courtesy Auto by saying that however technical xciting, it's hardly doable unless for the top four or five teams.
Just think about it, an 800 kJ battery to be charged/discharged every 80 sec? My Sony Ericsson U-polymer 3.8V Cell-phone battery is 12 kJ and it takes two hours to charge/discharge.

This is why I suggested a part battery part flywheel system.
I did not understand what you meant by a completely different rear brake system.

[autogyro]

Of course the obvious development direction of Kers would be to increase the power as suggested and to continue increasing this from season to season with the addition of two front wheel motor generators like the Porsche system. This could then give a part time 4WD system to improve handling on corners and split the energy harvesting/application to decrease charge time and apply time.
The more power allowed from Kers, the more the braking can be moved from the wheel brakes to Kers generators. Of course to balance this requires front wheel generator/motors.

[WhiteBlue]

It sounds like the FiA isn't looking for a push to pass system for hybrid next time.

We have to try and push forward with fuel efficiency. If, as an engine engineer, I am given a maximum fuel load, I will try to give the driver the maximum horsepower possible, building the most efficient engine I can.

It is a technical competition and as efficiency is obviously good for road cars, that could be good for them as well. So we want to try to adapt the rules we have in the run-up to the new engine formula.

Ideally, we would like to understand where road cars will be in five to ten years. We would then create regulations for three years from now to anticipate this. This is the most difficult route because we don't want to impose our own views. We need to have a proper view of where the manufacturers will be.

After that, we will do what is logical for the different championships. I think that could actually add to the show because with reduced displacement engines and lower torque, you could use additional electrical torque to differentiate between the cars, while at the same time developing and showcasing hybrid technology and performance that will be used in passenger cars.

It looks like the future thinking is specifying a maximum fuel load or limiting tank capacity. And they may use this philosophy already next year. They also want to use electric torque to augment the ICE torque and make that part of the propulsion a competitive discriminator. It is difficult to reconcile that with a push to pass standardized KERS system.

Perhaps the compromise is restricted fuel and unlimited but standardized KERS in 2011.

[xpensive]

I watched that exact comparison and I have to say you are right.
It is going to be very difficult for the FIA to make this call on the new engine/Kers regulations and keep up the spectacle.
Perhaps a reversed grid would help keep things exciting.

I'd like to return the courtesy Auto by saying that however technical xciting, it's hardly doable unless for the top four or five teams.
Just think about it, an 800 kJ battery to be charged/discharged every 80 sec? My Sony Ericsson U-polymer 3.8V Cell-phone battery is 12 kJ and it takes two hours to charge/discharge.

This is why I suggested a part battery part flywheel system.
I did not understand what you meant by a completely different rear brake system.

Because I think a 100 kW degressive MGU brake system will crave a very adaptive conventional system not to upset brake balance front and rear.
Think this way, bringing down a 700 kg object from 250 km/h to 150 in three seconds is an average 360 kW of braking power, an xtra 100 kW rear motor brake is not insignificant.

[autogyro]

I agree and it is why I was suggesting front wheel generator/motors and dual flywheel battery storage.
It is true that one of the main areas of development will be in balancing the EM Braking with the conventional.
I would like to use only EM Braking and find ways of dealing with the energy excess. Wheel brakes are huge energy wasting technology in F1.
Unfortunately in road cars, unless they are driving stop start in built up areas, the use of brakes is fairly minimal by comparison, so F1 is a logical area for such ideas.

[010010011010]

Perhaps the compromise is restricted fuel and unlimited but standardized KERS in 2011.

I hope you dont mean standardised KERS as in standard design

[xpensive]

I agree and it is why I was suggesting front wheel generator/motors and dual flywheel battery storage.
It is true that one of the main areas of development will be in balancing the EM Braking with the conventional.
I would like to use only EM Braking and find ways of dealing with the energy excess. Wheel brakes are huge energy wasting technology in F1.
Unfortunately in road cars, unless they are driving stop start in built up areas, the use of brakes is fairly minimal by comparison, so F1 is a logical area for such ideas.

We seem to agree again, in order to get into the 100 kW bracket for energy recovery I also think we need all-wheel recovery. But what a contraption, back to inboard front brakes in a certain way? But how do we store all this energy, batteries we allready agreed won't work alone, then a big gyro?