Do there any vegetarian racing driver?

[manchild]

What's a short alternative name for vegetarian?








Prey!



Sorry, couldn't resist.

What's a short alternative name for human carnivore?





Vulture!



Sorry, couldn't resist.

[alelanza]

wow Manchild, you didn't leave anything for me... oh well, I'll have some leftovers

You know how some veggies bang on about "Meat is Murder"? Surely veg is murder also as vegetables are living things until they are picked.

Vegetables don't have emotions, they are by no mean self-aware beings. That is the basic ethical reason.

To equalize vegetables with animals, they'd need to have at least some basic similarities humans share with animals - intelligence, senses, emotions, eyes... and they have none.

That is correct. In fact the murder itself is not the biggest problem if you ask me, though it is a problem of course, and i've been a full vegan for almost 5 years now.
The main issue for me is the torture animals undergo throughout modern factories. Think a milking cow, pumped full of hormones, antibiotics, overfed to the point of not being able to stand on its own, 'living' in a 3x3, always pregnant, seeing its normal life cut to 1/5th of what it should have been like.
Plants lack a nervous central system, capable of inflicting pain. Kick a pig, dog, cow, it'll run away and eventually learn to fear you, it'll scream not unlike humans do. It's not too surprising, just like us they have bones, nerves, muscles, kidneys, liver, etc. Trim a plant down and if you do it right it'll probably grow stronger.
After all, we have to eat something right? well then why choose to eat the one thing that is clearly capable of feeling pain? and depending on who you ask may even have a conscience? Saying plants are also alive and thus constitute the same ethical dilemma is just an easy cop out of the discussion.
People may suddenly take the easy esoterical and non scientific way out to explain plants are in the same league animals are, but as always my recommendation is that when in doubt resort to plain and common observation. Go, kill your dog and watch it scream, bleed and then rot away the way a human would. Then go and kill a field of rice. If your senses, conscience and your reason tell you it's the same process, then you are either a radically different human being than me, or most likely simply not interested enough to pay attention and open your eyes.

Considering who one of the most infamous vegetarians was, I think it is a bad sign.

Godwin's law this quick?

Which would be more beneficial to an independent study? Stating that 300g of beef produces the same amount of carbon emmissions as driving 200 miles in a V8 land rover or comparing those with the amount of carbon emmissions that produces this:

MC already answered this, but i just had to bring it up again. Given cattle has to eat, and strangely enough cattle is vegetarian, think how efficient it is to feed your food for years before you eat it. How many times did that cow poop? how much energy went into regenerating its organs? all the energy and water needed to keep billions of animals that would have never existed without the demand generated by humans? how much heat did that animal put out? what's the methane gas content they fart into the air? Lots of energy right there for you, and every single drop of it driven by demand.

However, I try to source meat that has had a decent quality of life prior to slaughter. ...

... Sure I eat meat but I eat 'good' meat where possible.

Hmmm, what exactly do you mean by 'I try' and 'where possible'? This being an ethical dilemma, how do you turn on and off your ethics/beliefs?
It's not like you can rape someone one day of the year and it'll be cool as long as you behave the other 364. 'Your honor I had to do it, my wife was nowhere near close'

that I watched grow up in a field down the road last year so I know how happy they were.

How happy do they need to be for you to eat them? and if one looks downright miserable, do you spare it in compensation? or do you feel it was its fault for not embracing life and it deserves getting eaten after all?

Just a point. Nature is a cruel system. Animals kill other animals to eat, just like the two-legged relatively more intelligent animals called humans.
...

The biggest difference between us and other predators is that most of us don't actually have to slaughter our food personally.

The biggest difference is they kill because they must. We don't, hunting and gathering is a thing of the past for most current societies. And don't get me wrong, if I need to kill an animal to survive then i will. Just like I would kill a human if my survival depended on it, even if it's because I need the food yet have no other choice.
We torture animals because:

- eating them brings us immediate pleasure,
- we were 'raised that way'
- we ignorantly think we have to

Most of the times those 3 reasons are deeply intertwined in any given human.

Plus using that video as rationalization is akin to looting a store because last night i saw Haitians looting left and right. The key here is different circumstances exist, thus I humbly suggest to consider each situation as separate and run your moral/ethical processes through each one of them, you should arrive at different conclusions.

We can't live eating only vegetables.
.

Says who? please tell me that knowledge did not come from watching futurama, or maybe the simpsons? how about american dad?

... The real problem isn't the farming its the number of people we now have feed.

I don't find not eating meat any more noble than raising it or slaughtering it your self. Its all a personal choice we have to make.

It's a supply and demand problem isn't it? what happens if your excessive demand (the need to feed billions of livestock) puts a big strain on your supply?
Prices go up, and the poorer you are the quicker you fall off the table.
It's certainly a personal choice, but it should still be a choice. For 99.whatever% of the population it's not a choice, it's just something they've always done and never thought about. If questioned, they'll just spurt 'plants are alive too' and think that grants them carte blanche to torture and kill anything that's legally killable, or that at least won't put up much of a fight.
If it's a choice, let's make it so, in fact, let's make it an informed decision. I'd be cool with that.

I guess these were "anemic" too, so their brains malfunctioned.

da Vinci, Edison, Einstein, Pythagoras, Schweitzer, Tesla...

While its true what you state, its also true that many people that turns veggie without informing themselves suffer from several health problems due to the lack of proteins, minerals or vitamins.
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Yes, but you can say that of any diet, if it's not balanced then you're screwed. I know people that went vegetarian and ran back to meat because they thought all they had to do was stop eating meat. They never thought substitutes were necessary, put that on top of an already weak diet and you've got recipe for failure.

But going away from industrial framing will not produce more food it will be much less.

No, as already explaind, feeding your food is highly inefficient.

We make more than enough food right now. Its a distribution problem. Its also a medical problem. You have populations of people in non fertile area with insane birth rates. This wasn't so bad before modern medicine but now the death rate is not keeping up with the birth rate and the local food supplies cant keep up. We can grow plenty of food but many of these countries have no means to distribute it to there people. Or the leaders keep it for there armies.

I agree it's a distribution problem, and even if everyone went vegan we would still have that problem. People would find ways of producing expensive onions that turned up better profits, or land would be sold to fill it up with whatever people feel like.

you keep on bringing up Joe Lewis what about all of the track stars with records that did not have the advantage of being vegan. I wonder how they did it.

I don't think he meant it gave him an advantage. It simply served to prove you don't need animal products, and statistically speaking it's no surprise there's only a few vegan athletes just like there's very few vegan people

Imagine those sort of people trying to feed themselves without ready meals and fast food. It would certainly reduce the obesity rates!

What makes you think no one would step in and make a buck selling vegan ready meals? there's already an industry for it. And i'm sure people would still find ways to become obese. I for one went from 85 Kg as a meat eater, down to about 78 Kg the first couple of vegan months, and now unhappily back to 84 Kg and increasing, I do sit on my @$$ all day and not getting any younger. I should weigh somewhere around 77 Kg, so not too bad really.

In other parts of the world people aren't starving because there are cattle about - they're starving because fellow humans are doing their damnest to make them starve (or find other equally unpleasant ways to kill them)

True

[flynfrog]

snip...

http://www.earthsave.ca/files/why_does_the_earth.pdf

Trust me I have heard all of that. I lived in a house full of vegetarians in college. The numbers are some what biased to the larger scale factory farms that if you look in my previous posts I try not to buy food from.

Have you thought about all of the animals killed during the production of your veggies? I cant find the study done I think by an Oregon professor. He concluded that grass grazed beef killed less animals per calorie than a Vegan diet. Cant seem to find the study now its been a number of years.


this is all in good fun btw

If not eating meat makes you feel higher and mightier than those of us below you on the evolution chain by all means go for it. I know I wont lose any sleep being below you.


Am I also allowed to eat other cannibals?

[flynfrog]

It's a supply and demand problem isn't it? what happens if your excessive demand (the need to feed billions of livestock) puts a big strain on your supply?
Prices go up, and the poorer you are the quicker you fall off the table.
It's certainly a personal choice, but it should still be a choice. For 99.whatever% of the population it's not a choice, it's just something they've always done and never thought about. If questioned, they'll just spurt 'plants are alive too' and think that grants them carte blanche to torture and kill anything that's legally killable, or that at least won't put up much of a fight.
If it's a choice, let's make it so, in fact, let's make it an informed decision. I'd be cool with that.

It is a supply problem but not like you think it is. The US has massive subsidies for corn production. The price of corn is well below the cost of production. This encourages feed lot and factory farm style of animal raising instead of grazing. With grain so cheap and land so expensive they pack the animals in tiny feed lots and feed them corn. This make Fast food meals so cheap. I would be more than happy to remove the subsides this would encourage more vegetable growth instead of grain. I love veggies. It would also raise the price of meat helping to curb our massive appetite for the stuff. In the end we would pay more for our food but it would be much higher quality.

[jon-mullen]

I guess these were "anemic" too, so their brains malfunctioned.

da Vinci, Edison, Einstein, Pythagoras, Schweitzer, Tesla...

Sorry, but just to be complete:

Pythagoras was a total nut job and ate according to his pseudo-religious numerological beliefs, mostly beans.

Tesla had absolute zero sex drive and was often in poor health...so that is kind of anemic. Also the Waldorf cooked most of his meals as he was in the lab 23.5 hours some days. Somehow a Waldorf salad just doesn't sound as appetizing without the turkey...

Trig and alternating current pretty much rock, though.

[manchild]

Have you thought about all of the animals killed during the production of your veggies? I cant find the study done I think by an Oregon professor. He concluded that grass grazed beef killed less animals per calorie than a Vegan diet. Cant seem to find the study now its been a number of years.

You're observing the planet trough US society glasses.
Apart from accidents when harvest machines happen to kill an animal due to negligence, I really can't see what animals are being killed when vegetables are planted and harvested in natural way.

Do vegetables need wrapping, boxes meant to be used just one, stickers, pesticides, herbicides, genetic modification, artificial fertilizers...? - No. That is part of overall industrialized society profit madness.

Pythagoras was a total nut job and ate according to his pseudo-religious numerological beliefs, mostly beans.

Tesla had absolute zero sex drive and was often in poor health...so that is kind of anemic. Also the Waldorf cooked most of his meals as he was in the lab 23.5 hours some days. Somehow a Waldorf salad just doesn't sound as appetizing without the turkey...

Trig and alternating current pretty much rock, though.

So, Pythagoras was eccentric (not being average doesn't mean that person is a nut) and according to you that means that he was ethically wrong, while billions of fat-ass "nuts" in the modern world are right just because they are wast majority?

Tesla... aren't there millions of omnivores with emotional and sexual problems?

What is the point of human existence on earth? Multiplying? According to you, Tesla missed a life because he never married and had kids. That obviously goes so far that you'd probably say that some moron with two digit IQ who was sexually active as porn star, married and had kids lead more meaningful life than Tesla?

The whole ethical thing with vegetarians/vegans is about life philosophy, and it reflects their personal, deeply private, spiritual relation towards other creatures, humans and nature.

I'd love to see statistic of criminal records of vegetarians/vegans, their political views etc. compared with omnivores. I bet that you can hardly find racists, xenophobes, warmongers, religious fanatics, terrorists... among vegetarians/vegans. On the other side I'm sure that those who have no problem to slaughter a lamb, have no problem to perform bombing of civilians as members of NATO or perform terrorist attacks as religious fanatics.

Name me a single vegetarians/vegans within these: dictators, war criminals, murderers, rapists, professional soldiers, terrorists, drug dealers etc. I'm certain there isn't a single one. Ask your self why there isn't any.

I say it's because all evils have the same root.

I'm absolutely certain that none ethically motivated vegetarian or vegan approves things like (western) deliberate shooting of pigs for military first aid training, circumcision or (eastern) female genital cutting, ritual child would infliction not to mention violation of other human rights. The violence and aggression towards animals are directly related with persons capacity to do the same to fellow human.

I've taken two extremes from both western and eastern civilizations as an vivid example, so that no one considers me as taking anyone's side. Opposed, at war, but completely identical lack of anything that would qualify them as civilized humans.

these:

http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&q ... a=N&tab=wi

or these:

http://images.google.com/images?um=1&hl ... =1&start=0

They are ethically on identical level.

Now, Pythagoras and Tesla are "bad" for reasons you've mentioned, while people like these, who are pathological bottom of human race are ok? One are technologically developed fanatics, other are backward fanatics but the effect of their existence on this planet has identical effect - pain, suffering and death of innocent people (even their own children), animals, and pollution of nature.

My message is that the way to go is not in between those two examples, not left or right from them, but in a completely different way of comprehension why we are on this planet, what is the best for of us, and what we should do. Tradition is a sack of evils inherited over generations, and despite that it has cracks, bad things are falling out too slowly.

Killing animals for food is part of that evil tradition, it is proven that people don't need to do that. It comes from the same corner of dark history where slavery, racial segregation, abuse of children and woman etc. came from. It is absolutely not necessary, it brings immeasurably more bad to people and the planet, but people fail to see it seeking only personal, egotistic pleasures.

Human race could do several times batter on current level if it would only stand up against religion, self-proclaimed system rulers, rule setters. They are in such trivial minority that well organized global movement would wipe them out over night, but people keep falling for stories about heaven and hell, and as such they are puppets on the string of those who rule them by fear.

I'm not preaching to prove I'm right, but because I strongly believe that only harmony on this planet can bring common good to all.

[Just_a_fan]

What's a short alternative name for vegetarian?








Prey!



Sorry, couldn't resist.

What's a short alternative name for human carnivore?





Vulture!



Sorry, couldn't resist.

Wish I could fly like a vulture too...

[Just_a_fan]

I'd love to see statistic of criminal records of vegetarians/vegans, their political views etc. compared with omnivores. I bet that you can hardly find racists, xenophobes, warmongers, religious fanatics, terrorists... among vegetarians/vegans. On the other side I'm sure that those who have no problem to slaughter a lamb, have no problem to perform bombing of civilians as members of NATO or perform terrorist attacks as religious fanatics.

Name me a single vegetarians/vegans within these: dictators, war criminals, murderers, rapists, professional soldiers, terrorists, drug dealers etc. I'm certain there isn't a single one. Ask your self why there isn't any.

I say it's because all evils have the same root.

A certain Mr A Hitler is one example. Sure, only one guy but he was responsible for the deaths of 6 million Jews so quite some example.

Eating meat does not make one a murderer any more than Germaine Greer's assertion that all men are rapists was true.

I have no problem with people being vegetarian or vegan. If it makes you feel good about yourself then great, go for it. I certainly object to being accussed of being little better than a murderer / drug dealer etc just because I enjoy a nice rare steak once a week.

"I detest your view but am prepared to die for your right to express it" is something that those who would ban things would do well to remember...

[jon-mullen]

My point was simply that you should be careful when you just pull biographic examples off a list from Wikipedia or PETA or whatever.

Pythagoras was a nut-job, not just a little strange, more like Jim Jones-style crazy. There's plenty of literature about it.

I considered Tesla's life worthwhile enough that I took the time to read a biography about him (not a Wikipedia page, Wizard by Marc Seifer, highly recommended). You used him as an example of health, which he was not. For starters, the guy was about 6'6" (ah, friggin units...um...like 196 cm) and spindly, hunched over, underweight, frail. So, pretty much anemic. Also, as far as ethics goes, he worked on military projects like remote control of submarines and a Death Ray. Now, to be fair to him, he thought that a nation having these weapons would never engage in a war on account of the deterrence factor. I think even pre-Dr. Strangelove that's a bit of willful ignorance, and he needed the money so he could finish his pet project Wardenclyffe.

Name me a single vegetarians/vegans within these: dictators, war criminals, murderers, rapists, professional soldiers, terrorists, drug dealers etc. I'm certain there isn't a single one. Ask your self why there isn't any.

See, you're just begging for it. Der Unmoralischführer and Pol Pot. Charlie Manson. And if you need a vegetarian drug dealer's number, PM me, I bet I could even find you a vegan one. That one's just ridiculous, of course there's vegetarian drug dealers, you ever been to a Phish concert?

This is the problem with using biographic examples to prove your point. If you want to put vegetarianism up in moral importance equal to things like racism, misogyny, war, following the more sensible laws, that's fine with me. But for every one of those issues you can find a person who was morally superior on one but not the other. You can even find people (for instance Lincoln in "freeing" the slaves) who did great things without even really believing in the morality behind them.


Now let's be honest. There's a lot of people arguing against vegetarianism that know in the back of their minds that it's probably the right thing to do and it's probably not bad for your health. I myself get in arguments with my vegetarian friends even though I know they're right. The bottom line is that I eat 2-3 times a day, have been for my whole life, and from a very limited menu. It's hard to change.

Me, personally, if you wanted to convince me to go vegetarian, tell me what you usually eat. Where you shop. What's on your grocery list. Does it come up when you go out to eat. A lot of people I know who go veg end up eating from an even more limited menu and a lot of junk food and then try to tell me it's healthier. Not the way they're doing it. Not to mention it's almost always more expensive. Make it sound easy (cheap would help too) and I think you'd be surprised at how many people stop arguing with you over the morality and health of it.

Edited to correct misspelling

[manchild]

Just_a_fan, you're another victim of Goebbels' propaganda.

The fact is, many people use the word "vegetarian" to describe diets that aren't vegetarian at all, and Hitler's case is no exception. An article from May 30, 1937, 'At Home With The Fuhrer' says, "It is well known that Hitler is a vegetarian and does not drink or smoke. His lunch and dinner consist, therefore, for the most part of soup, eggs, vegetables and mineral water, although he occasionally relishes a slice of ham and relieves the tediousness of his diet with such delicacies as caviar ..." So when Hitler says he's a vegetarian, he's almost certainly using it in this context: He's a "vegetarian" who eats meat. That's like someone saying, "I'm not a bank-robber! I only do it once a month."

http://michaelbluejay.com/veg/hitler.html

He was the hypocrite in everything he had done - dark hair leader of blond hair aryan race (just like almost every single high ranking NSDAP member).

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kXjcf47y-zk[/youtube]

jon-mullen, you've got that info from http://www.vegetariansareevil.com?

Even if there are some exceptions in a rule, that doesn't changes the rule. I knew I should have written "get the comparative statistics" or something like that.

[jon-mullen]

Again, the problem with biographic examples. Especially on the interwebz.

[andrew]

How is this even F1 related now?

For the sake of humanity, please someone close this thread!!

[jon-mullen]

What do Michael Jackson, autogyro's transmission, Gombocs, banning Islamatron, pit babes, and cilantro have to do with F1? Somehow that sounds like the set up for a joke with no punchline.

[flynfrog]

I dont know the middle of the joke but it ends with the bartender saying get the --- out of here.

[Ted68]

The Bible depicts vegetarianism as God’s ideal, and the diet conforms to the central biblical principle of steward-ship. In Eden, all creatures lived peacefully, and God told both humans and animals to consume only plant foods (Gen. 1:29–31). Several prophecies, such as Isaiah 11:6–9, foresee a return to this vegetarian world, where the wolf, lamb, lion, cow, bear, snake, and little child all coexist peacefully. Christian vegetarians, while acknowledging human sinfulness, believe we should strive toward the harmonious world Isaiah envisioned—to try to live in accordance with the prayer that Jesus taught us, “Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done, On earth as it is in heaven” (Matt. 6:10).

While humans can digest flesh, and it is likely that our ancestors consumed some meat, our anatomy much more strongly resembles that of plant-eating creatures. For example: like plant eaters (but un-like meat eaters), our colons are long and complex (not simple and short); our saliva contains digestive enzymes (un-like carnivores); and our teeth resemble those of plant eaters—for instance, our canines are short and blunt (not long, sharp, and curved).

The millions of healthy vegetarians (who tend to outlive meat eaters) demonstrate that it is neither necessary nor desirable to eat meat.

http://www.all-creatures.org/cva/honoring.htm