The F-duct voted out by the teams

[Giblet]

Wow the F-Duct ban will be the only thing to outlive Bernie's stranglehold on the commercial rights.

[autogyro]

Wow the F-Duct ban will be the only thing to outlive Bernie's stranglehold on the commercial rights.

Nah,next year Virgin will have a 'G' duct, which will give so much downforce, their cars will be driving along underground.

[vall]

I was thinking today: the rule that bans the movable aero parts that influence the car aerodynmics is there not because these parts move, but because they actively change the car aero parameters during the race. So, the idea is to prevent change of the aerodynamics of the car while moving. I am really surprised how FAI ruled the F-duct legal then The f-duct actively influences the aerodynamic performance of the car, so it should have been banned. The same way FIA clarified that any form of ride height control would be illegal, they should have said the f-duct is illegal because is actively changes the car aero-performance. Good the teams banned it.

[Caito]

vall, but that's just a consequence of moving the hand/knee to a more comfortable position. Not intended to change anything.

[ISLAMATRON]

Wow well, that explains why there were rules in 1995 when those groups didnt even exist

If your understanding of the rules making hasnt changed since 95 than it is clear why your posts onthe subject are as uninformed as they are.

FISA/FOCA, concorde agreement... look it up, do some reading, learn something please.

well, it was the intention of the OWG to reduce the downforce by 40% and so they proposed the 2009 rule changes. Then some guys found a loophole and what MrM did to close it? Nothing, because it served his agenda. DDD even stayed for 2010 (it was the teams that agreed to get rid of DDD from 2011 on).

You are one of the main people that call MM a dictator, but now you are saying he should have banned something that was clearly within the rules... and now are you trying to blame him for the F-duct? absurd. What about his agenda did the DDD serve?

MM did not have the power or authority to close any loopholes, and neither does Todt or Whiting.

[mx_tifoso]

Mercedes GP CEO Nick Fry told Autosport that he supported the ban on F-Ducts because the designs brought little to the sport.

"I personally think that it is sensible to nip in the bud technologies that, on the face of it, don't really have a relevance for use outside of F1."

What could teams possibly develop that is relevant for use outside of F1? Particularly for road cars?

TC? No.
ABS? No.
Stability Control? No.
Direct Injection? No.
VVT? No.
(significant) Moveable aero? No.
Treaded tyres? No.

F1 has practically nothing to do with road cars, much less daily drivers that will last 300,000+ miles. F1 is behind road cars in so many ways that it should be allowed by society to stray away from the beaten path.

This subject really bums me out. This series is being limited by those who want to be socially correct and don't care if the character and soul of the series is walked on.

The sad thing is that I have no other series to look forward to as much as F1. Nothing comes close. The next best thing is high performance driving events, and for the mean time I'm relegated to being a spectator.

[jamsbong]

I don't agree that F-duct should be ban and the stupid excuse that it is not relevant to day-to-day automotive application. If that is the case, then all aero should be ban and all F1 cars should have a same profile as the Toyota Prius!

I can accept that taking hands off to block the duct is dangerous and bad influence to everyday drivers as it sends the wrong message. The drivers do have to take hands off to adjust brake balance and movable wings in the front.

I would prefer if the F-duct stays and be operated automatically or stay but can be operated with the knees only.

Oh well, if F-duct is banned, I can see aero-engineers going for a diffuser duct! That would be even more interesting since the diffuser accounts for 50% to 60% of the downforce. That means a 'stalled' diffuser would make the car go even faster.

[ISLAMATRON]

Diffusers dont create nearly as much drag as rear wings do... so a D-duct would not reduce the drag as much as an F-duct would

[vall]

vall, but that's just a consequence of moving the hand/knee to a more comfortable position. Not intended to change anything.

what do you mean? one such move changes dramatically the aero-performance of the car (remove drag of the rare wing)? This is exactly what the flexible wing did. So the effect is the same, and for the same reason one if illegal, the F-duct should be banned

[vall]

well, it was the intention of the OWG to reduce the downforce by 40% and so they proposed the 2009 rule changes. Then some guys found a loophole and what MrM did to close it? Nothing, because it served his agenda. DDD even stayed for 2010 (it was the teams that agreed to get rid of DDD from 2011 on).

You are one of the main people that call MM a dictator, but now you are saying he should have banned something that was clearly within the rules... and now are you trying to blame him for the F-duct? absurd. What about his agenda did the DDD serve?

MM did not have the power or authority to close any loopholes, and neither does Todt or , Whiting.

well, there was a grey area in the rule about the race-height control. It seemed that if sort of gas changed the car height without mechanical intervention, the it would be legal. But FIA was fast to issue a clarification that it would illegal. So, it is possible and Todt did it.

MrM on the other hand used the DDD to smack the cafe of McLaren, Ferrari, Briatore and others how did not want to play according to his agenda

[xpensive]

Of course the FIA has the privilege of solitary rule-interpretation and can decide to ban whatever they want at any point in time, it's an FIA series with rules issued by the FIA, simple as that. Banning Renaults "mass-damper" was a very good xample of that, when they suddenly decided to ban it even after an initial go-ahead.

The teams don't make the rules and they certainly don't enforce them, what they can do is to come to a voluntary agreement beween themselves however, such as KERS and now this F-duct thing, aka "Dead zone".

[tok-tokkie]

I am glad that McLaren are allowed to gain the benefit of their ingenuity for this season. If it was banned immediately that would have been unjust I feel. This is what Nick Fry of Mercedes said in the link given above.

He added: "I know it is disappointing for those who invent these ideas, but I think what people have to get used to is, like the double diffuser idea, they may be fairly short lived.

"You get your pay back for the year when you have got it and other people haven't - and if it isn't a useful technology then it comes off.

[xpensive]

Invention or not, it's still up to the FIA to judge wether the such are within the detailed rules issued for their own racing series. Teams have nothing to do with the rules as they are set, teams have nothing to do with the interpretation of said rules either, their position is only to make the most of them.

This is the responsibility of the FIA and Charlie Whiting as their technical representative, to keep things in line. Failing to see the openings in the DDD underbodies as "holes" was an obvious misjudgement, so was failing to behold the "Dead zone" as a movable aerodynamic device.

[autogyro]

It is refreshing to see the teams agreeing to ban f ducts next year and to see their sensible evaluation of the re-introduction of Kers.
However, I see no major improvements to F1 until there is a major reduction in down force coupled to a much simplified raft of aero regulations.
I cannot see the teams agreeing to this, as it is the main area of performance gains at this time.
The initiative must be taken by the FIA and the series organisers.

[xxChrisxx]

I agree with Eddie Jordan. Reduce aero Downforce to 55 percent to follow the FIA intentions when Max Mosley was President.

The only problem with that is that engineers claw the lost aero back. It may a an idea to indroduce max downforce level to a ton or x tons at top speed (where DF will be greatest), with load sensors. This stops the engineers from clawing back lost downforce above the specified level, but allows them to focus on L/D ratio.

I'd also allow active aero (altohugh i'd prefer active ride) phased in over a few years (starting in 2013 or whatever), people will bitch on cost grounds but it would allow aero to be more stable over a wider range of conditions. Less and more stable downforce is the key.

Or just remove it altogether and have 700bhp formula ford. Which I think would be pretty cool acutally. hehehehehe

Like you i'm glas that KERS is being brought back in a less choked guise. Are they going to make it a push to pass, or an integral part of the power system? I've not seen any links on the new regs.