Mercedes GP MGP W01

[marcush.]

This may be a little premature (ie. I should wait for a couple more races) - but has anyone wondered whether Mercedes may have lost lost performance in adapting their car?

It's probably a bit early to accuse them of modifying the car purely for Michaels tastes, but it does look that way.

Look at the qualifying gaps to pole this year for Rosberg:

Bahrain +1.14
Australia +0.97
Malaysia +1.35
China – +0.36
Spain – +1.41 (MS @ 1.29)

On that basis the mods look like a backward step unless Nico didn't get his setup dialled in.

To me ,in china RedBull was underperforming big time ,be it wet or dry their Qualy performance just was not as good as in all other races.
In spain we were back to normal and lets allow for a small step forward for all the bigger teams but that was a tenth or maybe two not the half or full seconds we
are made to believe...Performance is not grown on trees and a improvement of a second is only possible when you are starting from a long way back or you happen to find the dog you buried in the car during winter....and can remove it.
clearly Merc has yet to dig deeper in this...unfortunatelly.

[mike]

mayb we should start discussing the affects of exhaust driven DDD
it is seemingly the best solution, compared to the mclaren mega DDD and the ferrari mount your gearbox high solution, the mercedes solution is just too 1st gen to be affect at the moment

I have been thinking about exactly that as well. Has anyone here some good data on air-velocity at the exit-points of the exhaust (between 10 and 18.000 rpm where these cars run 99% of their time) ?
If the air-velocity exiting is higher then the velocity of the air passing over the car, then this could bring some obvious benefits.

Central exhausts (MP4-25 Style) would generate downforce at the rear wing-bridge.
Low-side exhausts (RB6-style) would cause the air between the hull and the wheels to move faster creating a small lower-pression area that would suck-in more air (it is most likely to be very turbulent air there anyway due to front-wheels). That in turn would due to the opening-up towards the end, generate an even higher air-speed where it meets the diffuser air, and the rear-wing bridge air giving it a good additional DF.
I am not a aero-engineer nor aero-specialist, just know a bit of the basics, so obviously this could be wrong, but I'd like to hear your thinking/opinions on this.

Thanks,

S.

not trying to be off topic at all but diffuser basically works by decreasing pressure at the floor a while increase pressure at the openings. the faster the air travels around the opening the faster the air below the floor hence at the same speed the more air u can get to the openings of the diffuser the more efficient it will be, redbull cars doesnt have the biggest diffuser ie mclaren style on the wider side or ferrari on the taller side, but it does hav hot air at 18000rpm 2.4l of air blowing at it, and i reckon at low speed it almost act like an aerodynamic traction control/booster

[manchild]

You may at this time feel liberated to start an MSC bashing thread elsewhere. Cheers

What is your problem? Why are you so bitchy and personal? This is a technical discussion, and I haven't mentioned anything about MSC having something to do with it.

Regarding gravel, I've seen cars falling and rolling and sliding upside down. I've been digging a lot too, and the gravel traps are more like sand than pure gravel. A spike would go all the way down.

More than half a ton heavy car with enormous inertia and speed would, if landed upside down lay only on blade on top of driver's head, and some chassis in front. If the blade would sink, than it would lay on helmet and some chassis in front.

I've been planting and trimming grass to. It doesn't grow trough it, if that happens, grass root is in upper layer of gravel, not in soil below it.

The car has passed tests, it fulfilled dimensions check too, but that still doesn't mean that what I'm suggesting wouldn't happen if it would flip on gravel.

Gravel traps are max 5 inches deep to make it possible for the marshall's to walk on it and ensure that the cars are arrested. The actual depth only needs to exceed the ride height of the car which is 50mm or 2inches.

http://www.formula1.com/inside_f1/safet ... /7430.html

The traps are normally about 25 centimetres deep and filled with spherical gravel stones of between 5 and 16 millimetres diameter.

[mike]

i hav to agree with manchild
the design is legal in the rules, but u really need to question whether it is safe or not having such small fin on top.
its true that manchild is no fan of MSC, but this has nothing to do with MSC its abt the design of the car.

i think the term roll-over hood implies the car has to "roll" when it is upside down instead of just snap and let the driver's head hit the ground or cut him in the neck.... i bet its design to with stand regulational loads, but when accidents happen, it better to be safe then sorry

[mike]

double post

[RH1300S]

This may be a little premature (ie. I should wait for a couple more races) - but has anyone wondered whether Mercedes may have lost lost performance in adapting their car?

It's probably a bit early to accuse them of modifying the car purely for Michaels tastes, but it does look that way.

Look at the qualifying gaps to pole this year for Rosberg:

Bahrain +1.14
Australia +0.97
Malaysia +1.35
China – +0.36
Spain – +1.41 (MS @ 1.29)

On that basis the mods look like a backward step unless Nico didn't get his setup dialled in.

Red Herring - don't waste too much time worrying about this!

I entirely forgot that RedBull had upgrades for this race too......which makes the whole argument a nonsense

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

The Mercedes needs better aero, no two ways about it.

It will be very interesting to see how they come up with solutions to get the car more stable in the high speed corners. This is an area they were brilliant with last year. But in terms of front wing and diffuser design, Mercedes are lagging well behind the top 3 and even Renault appear to have a better front wing at present than the Mercedes.

Its understood that Turkey will be where Brawn will either call of development of the W01 and concentrate on next years car, or if the new aero bits that are due for this race give them a big jump, they will continue development of the current car.

Its been a series of false dawns so far for Merc, only next year do i think we will see what the potential is for this team. Can I suggest that Norbert rings Adrian Newey and finds out how much the clause in his contract is worth?

Either that or how the hell he got the exhaust driven diffuser to work, as I reckon thats worth 0.3 seconds easy....

[Tim.Wright]

...sliding upside down in a gravel trap is impossible with any roll structure. tey dig in and flip the car over...

You said it yourself here. once that blade digs in, the drivers helmet is now the roll hoop.

Tim

[WhiteBlue]

The Mercedes needs better aero, no two ways about it.

I don't think that is the total solution. Red Bull are perfect at heating their tyres and generating mechanical grip. That is a matter of suspension and not of the aero. It is no coincidence that everybody wants to look at the RB6 pull rod rear suspension. The other teams incl. Merc are far away from the performance leader there.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

The Mercedes needs better aero, no two ways about it.

I don't think that is the total solution. Red Bull are perfect at heating their tyres and generating mechanical grip. That is a matter of suspension and not of the aero. It is no coincidence that everybody wants to look at the RB6 pull rod rear suspension. The other teams incl. Merc are far away from the performance leader there.

Do you not think that the exhaust driven diffuser is somthing that helps Red Bull over the others? It would be very interesting to see the heat and air going from the engine over and around the rear wing as per normal, so you can plot the air stream and see what your losses are.

Even more interesting would be to see how the air is now effectively used to go through a grooved slot in the diffuser in the RB 6s case.
Personally I think the pushrod pullrod difference isnt as big as first thought, I may stand corrected as Im limited in what i actually know there.

Mercedes cannot get anywhere near red bull in terms of highspeed corners, if you look at sector 3 in barcelona Mercedes were actually very competitive.
Sector 3 is low speed mechanical grip section.....

[marcush.]

I thought of all what F1-eng was prepared to give away ..and if I remember correctly he just stopped short of confirming last year being a member of brawn..that:
Tyre usage and Aerodownforce are very much coupled.
So the tyre not sliding in those corners but developing grip is a function of downforce available.So in effect Red bull can work the tyres harder mechanically but the added df lets them not slide as much in the quick stuff preventing them to overheat...
thats my idea what the secret is.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Oh yes F1-Eng

The reason Red Bull are quick is summed up by Ross Brawn when asked in Spain why are they almost a second quicker than anyone else.
"turn 9"

High speed corner requiring huge amounts of aerodynamic grip.

I play this circuit very often on Forza Motorsport 3. And I really love how turn 9 is a blind near flat corner in some GT-1 cars like the Peugeot 908 or Acura LMP1.
However, using a low downforce config on the game, it means lifting off or even a tap on the brakes before entry to ensure a clean exit.

Yes its a game( very very good in fact) but it gives you an idea of the speeds that a car as capable as an F1 car can do.

Red Bull nailed trun 9 all weekend long iorrelevant of fuel load or tyre wear. This indicates masses of aero grip, And I think this exhaust driven diffuser is a big reason for this.
How easily implemetnable is somthing as complex as this to do on a MErcedes I wonder....

[wesley123]

Oh yes F1-Eng
Red Bull nailed trun 9 all weekend long iorrelevant of fuel load or tyre wear. This indicates masses of aero grip, And I think this exhaust driven diffuser is a big reason for this.
How easily implemetnable is somthing as complex as this to do on a MErcedes I wonder....

Pretty complicated. The exhaust is determinant for the engines torque map, a wrong exhaust can mean huge loos of power for example. For red bull it was easy to do, the position of the exhaust didnt change that much, actually max by 20cm.

[RacingManiac]

The Mercedes needs better aero, no two ways about it.

I don't think that is the total solution. Red Bull are perfect at heating their tyres and generating mechanical grip. That is a matter of suspension and not of the aero. It is no coincidence that everybody wants to look at the RB6 pull rod rear suspension. The other teams incl. Merc are far away from the performance leader there.

Nothing is separate on F1 car, the whole reason for downforce is to enhance grip and the tires are built to handle the force. More downforce is more grip and you build more tire temp.

[ESPImperium]

The Mercedes needs better aero, no two ways about it.

I don't think that is the total solution. Red Bull are perfect at heating their tyres and generating mechanical grip. That is a matter of suspension and not of the aero. It is no coincidence that everybody wants to look at the RB6 pull rod rear suspension. The other teams incl. Merc are far away from the performance leader there.

Nothing is separate on F1 car, the whole reason for downforce is to enhance grip and the tires are built to handle the force. More downforce is more grip and you build more tire temp.

The Mercedes, and other teams need to concentrate on developing both mechanichal and aero sides better to catch the Red Bull, but by that time its mots probably better to look toward 2011 as the red Bull will have arround another second on them.

Currently i think that the W01 has gone too far the wrong way of the BGP001, where Red Bull refined the RB5 into the RB6, the W01 should have been a evolution of the BGP001. Thats how i am looking at it. I feel that the front end ballance of the W01 is at fault.

Teams will find it hard to get the Red Bull pull rod suspension integrated into this and next years designs as the gearbox casings are homologated for 2010 and 2011 under cost cutting rules.

I feel that the Red Bull RB6 may be the ultimate car of this era of the sport already. All that is needed on it is refinement of relyability and then development ot ultimate pace on the package as a whole. Id say that it can only get faster. The W01 is a ordanary car by comparison.