Red Bull RB6

[Intego]

The RB has one of the lowest speeds on the straights, and that's why it cannot pass. With the revised Renault power plant (20-30hp)...

I don't know where people get these figures. The notion that Renault can pull out thirty horsepower just by changing some small narrowly defined parts and maybe the lubricants and other fluids they use in a homologated engine is nonsense. They are not that much down on power. We're talking horsepower in single figures if they're gaining anything.

Now "Didi" Mateschitz (shareholder of Red Bull GmbH) said "it's fact that Ferrari's and Renault's engines do have a handicap of 30 to 40 hp compared to Mercedes' engine."
German source: http://www.motorsport-total.com/f1/news ... 51107.html
Maybe he wants to scare combatants, maybe he's right ...

Of course small changes in permitted sections can't tease out this power, but who can grant that Renault does not secretly check out the whole engine for power and then says, uh, THAT was the improvement we needed for reliability ...

....and the damn F duct passing will be like for everyone else, because by then they will all have F ducts and power will be very even.

Frankly, I cannot see any space whatsoever for an F-duct on the RB6. I cannot believe how thin that shark fin is. If they do anything they'll be looking at a blown wing, which doesn't seem to have had any effect whatsoever for Mercedes.

Red Bull may run F-Duct in Turkey

[raceman]

Red Bull may run F-Duct in Turkey

and I wonder how fast RBs will be with the advantage of F-duct.....

[BreezyRacer]

When the cars had a venturi before the flat bottom plate there was a time the exhaust exited right in the venturi to augment it. The drivers found it very disconcerting as the downforce was engine revs dependent. The teams all(?) moved the exhaust away from the venturi.
I wonder what the effect is on this diffuser. Does the exhaust blow through the diffuser or does it blow across the gurney on the outside of the diffuser?

Tok,
On page 66 is a link to a pic that shows the revised diffuser. Combine that pic with the exhaust exit pic on the last few pages and you'll get an idea of how it all comes together.The exhaust exits in this diffuser are along the inside of the rear tire and then into the diffuser box. This design isolates tire turbulence from the diffuser flow very effectively. That allows the diffuser to work more completely, with the diffuser area almost entirely isolated right down to the pavement. This design shouldn't be too sensitive to engine speed variations because the diffuser opening for this also picks up natural airflow in that area. The exhaust is not dumped directly into the diffuser section, but instead it mixes in with the flow above the floor. Sealing the diffuser area from outside turbulence is critical, BTW, and that is what the exhaust flow does in this example. I hope that helps ..

[segedunum]

Now "Didi" Mateschitz (shareholder of Red Bull GmbH) said "it's fact that Ferrari's and Renault's engines do have a handicap of 30 to 40 hp compared to Mercedes' engine."

It's been discussed before because Christian Horner repeated the same figures. It's nonsense. A homologated engine cannot be that much down on power. The comment about Ferrari's engines also being down on power by that amount really does tell you it's nonsense. 30 to 40 horsepower is getting into the territory that the Renault V10 was ahead of the Cosworth V8 in the early nineties. It's just not credible.

ADDENDUM: Somebody correct me if I've been looking at the wrong figures, but Mercedes and Red Bull had about the same average straight line speed at Barcelona at 303. The Ferraris were top along with the McLarens, so the Ferraris certainly aren't down on power, and the Renaults themselves were just a few Ks behind. I just don't see it.

Personally, I think this is an Adrian Newey strategy of leaning on the engine and trying to wangle some performance. Adrian's standard modus operandi to a lack of straight line speed has usually been "Well, I'm working flat out to increase downforce so if we're down on straight line speed then increase the power of the engine". I suspect that's why the Renault V10 in the nineties became as good an engine as it did.

Red Bull may run F-Duct in Turkey

Just because they say they're looking at it it doesn't mean they're going to get it on the car. There just isn't the space on the car from what I can see for any ducting. It'll be a blown wing, if anything. If they do run a ducted system I will be extremely interested to see what they do and how they've done it.

[Intego]

and I wonder how fast RBs will be with the advantage of F-duct.....

MCL estimates they gain 0.3 sec per lap. marcush wrote the RB6 is obviously not that fast in traffic (that's a good point) and Nick Fry (Merc) said RB were 20 kph faster than anyone else in turn 9. With a f-duct RB could partly close the gap in top speed (which was 10 kph in Barcelona).

When we put this together RB will be very fast in passages with fast turns and following straights. Maybe we see the RB passing cars without benefit from slip stream, because they're much faster in clean air.

And if Newey's boys can manage the f-duct system in "ridiculously short lead times to be able to get the components to the cars" (as Horner said), that could be very soon.

Or we see the f-duct disturbing the whole aero ...

[BreezyRacer]

Now "Didi" Mateschitz (shareholder of Red Bull GmbH) said "it's fact that Ferrari's and Renault's engines do have a handicap of 30 to 40 hp compared to Mercedes' engine."

It's been discussed before because Christian Horner repeated the same figures. It's nonsense. A homologated engine cannot be that much down on power. The comment about Ferrari's engines also being down on power by that amount really does tell you it's nonsense. 30 to 40 horsepower is getting into the territory that the Renault V10 was ahead of the Cosworth V8 in the early nineties. It's just not credible.

ADDENDUM: Somebody correct me if I've been looking at the wrong figures, but Mercedes and Red Bull had about the same average straight line speed at Barcelona at 303. The Ferraris were top along with the McLarens, so the Ferraris certainly aren't down on power, and the Renaults themselves were just a few Ks behind. I just don't see it.

Personally, I think this is an Adrian Newey strategy of leaning on the engine and trying to wangle some performance. Adrian's standard modus operandi to a lack of straight line speed has usually been "Well, I'm working flat out to increase downforce so if we're down on straight line speed then increase the power of the engine". I suspect that's why the Renault V10 in the nineties became as good an engine as it did.

Red Bull may run F-Duct in Turkey

Just because they say they're looking at it it doesn't mean they're going to get it on the car. There just isn't the space on the car from what I can see for any ducting. It'll be a blown wing, if anything. If they do run a ducted system I will be extremely interested to see what they do and how they've done it.

Seg
I got that HP number from the various reports that have been circulating since last mid season. And just a few weeks ago the FIA granted Renault an update for adding an add'l 20 hp or so to even the field, engine wise. I don't believe it's hit the track yet but I'm not totally sure about that.

As for the F-duct all they need to do is make a new engine cover/fin. Given Newey's voiced concerns of driver safety I would imagine it will operate much like Ferrari's does with the back of the driver's hand or something similar that would require moving one hand off the wheel. Newey's take on the F-Duct should be most interesting .. I'm looking forward to it. They've been working on it for a couple of months now so it's no last minute thing anymore.

I bet Newey plays a mean game of chess too, given the ways he starts the season with the hint of an idea and a few races in it all comes clear what it was all for. Last year it was the high nose with ridges and such and this year it was that last minute move of the exhausts to the floor area.

[Intego]

It's been discussed before because Christian Horner repeated the same figures. It's nonsense. A homologated engine cannot be that much down on power.

I think they're exaggerating a bit in order to put pressure on the FIA. It's a bit like the german "Jammern auf hohem Niveau". (Sorry, I can't find an accurate translation.)

ADDENDUM: Somebody correct me if I've been looking at the wrong figures ...

no correction.

Just because they say they're looking at it it doesn't mean they're going to get it on the car.

Just mentioned what Horner said: "We still don't have the blown rear wing or F-Duct, so inevitably there is a research project that is going on into that. Istanbul could be a venue where that could be introduced."

[Blackout]

Red Bull may run F-Duct in Turkey

and I wonder how fast RBs will be with the advantage of F-duct.....

and the updated RS27...
when will it come ?

[Hangaku]

I think they're exaggerating a bit in order to put pressure on the FIA. It's a bit like the german "Jammern auf hohem Niveau". (Sorry, I can't find an accurate translation.)

More likely, they are playing games with the other teams, to try and impress how fast their tub is with an allegedly underpowered engine.

[Roger the knife]

I was under the impression that the Renault V8 had already been updated HP-wise from the start of the season..

[WhiteBlue]

I was under the impression that the Renault V8 had already been updated HP-wise from the start of the season..

Nope, AFAIK Horner whined about it from November 2009 to March 2010 but nothing was done. The FiA requested that any equalization had to be by shaving power from the top end engines and Merc simply said NO WAY.

[Tonn]

[segedunum]

Or we see the f-duct disturbing the whole aero ...

That's certainly a possibility. I have never believed this F-duct system was free. McLaren have had to create a rather hideously complex rear wing in order to manage the stall and balance it off with downforce. RB are going to have to be careful it doesn't muck up the aerodynamic advantage they have, although it would make the championship more interesting for later on in the season if they did.

They certainly need it though. Anywhere with a long straight is nullifying the cornering speed they have, and at 10 kph slower places like Monza are going to be impossible. Overall they still have an advantage over the season, but not having this will make a handful of tracks difficult.

[ringo]

It wont disturb the aero as much as it would disturb their cooling. And we already know how on edge the redbull is in terms on it's design. The F duct is going to need some of the space inside the cover. However i don't really see it requiring a radical wing like Mclaren.
Mclaren's is radical becuase they are pushing the f duct technology.
Redbull just need an entry level F duct to give them something on the striaght. They have so much performance in the turns, i doubt they even need to compromise the f duct's advantage in top speed like we see ferrari and sauber doing.

[bill shoe]

The ghost of ride height control rises again (or is it just the grumblings of a driver in a slower car?)

Lewis Hamilton on Red Bull:

“It’s a difficult to explain. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with [us in] Q3. They are obviously doing something that enables them to do that time, because in Q1 and Q2 we’re a lot closer than in Q3. Clearly there’s some kind of trick or something going on. I think bit by bit we’ll figure it out.

http://adamcooperf1.com/2010/05/12/lewi ... out-of-it/