Mercedes GP MGP W01

[aral]

Why all the arguments about the wings deflecting?? These wings are load tested, and NO deflection is allowed, otherwise it would immediately be banned. Wings act, not by pure deflection of the airflow, but by the interaction of low and high pressure areas. THAT is how pushing air into the low pressure area, assists in stalling the downpressure.

[WhiteBlue]

I think they are using two different sets of assumptions here. Marcush makes the assumption that a bending force in the vertical direction will also have a torsional effect on the wing which will automatically reduce the angle of attack and lead to less downforce via the reduced AoA. I do not necessarily see that happening. The torsional rigidity of the wing may be magnitudes higher than the vertical resistance. Aircraft do not loose significant lift when their wing tips bend upwards.

So unless you have a rotationally floppy wing you would not loose downforce. The force that bends the wing is still an external forces to the car and does not get lost to the Newtonian balance of forces.

[WhiteBlue]

I think they are using two different sets of assumptions here. Marcush makes the assumption that a bending force in the vertical direction will also have a torsional effect on the wing which will automatically reduce the angle of attack and lead to less downforce via the reduced AoA. I do not necessarily see that happening. The torsional rigidity of the wing may be magnitudes higher than the vertical resistance. Aircraft do not loose significant lift when their wing tips bend upwards.

So unless you have a rotationally floppy wing you would not loose downforce. The force that bends the wing is still an external force to the car and does not get lost to the Newtonian balance of forces.

Why all the arguments about the wings deflecting?? These wings are load tested, and NO deflection is allowed, otherwise it would immediately be banned.

Have a look at a super slow motion and you see just how much the wing tips travel, particularly at the RB6.

[marcush.]

WB

contrary to aircraft ,F1 wingsstays are deliberately designed to bend or allow rotation.why else would someone position the wingstay at the leading edge of the wing ,wheras the downward forces are biggest at the trailing edge..

the torsional rigifdity of a Aircraft wing is ok because the wing base is wide and it taapers down towards the wing tip .
Looking at a F1 front wing theres almost nothing in the centre where you feed in the
forces -small crossection and wt the end you are producing the force with multiple ,stacked elements these alone lend to being not stiff but flexing is unavoidable and the thin middle section does the rest..of course i might be wrong ,but it seems to be not logical a infinitely stiff wing would produce the same forces than a very flexi one .Taken to extremes a infinetly flexi one would just bow away under the forces applied to it aligning to the stream of air ...and recover if the windspeed went down ..producing no downforce at all.

[RacingManiac]

If it produces no downforce, will it still bend down?

BTW, the most downforce shouldn't happen at the trailing edge no? CoP of the wing shouldn't it be closer to the thickest part of the chord? I can see the drag will act on a high AoA wing like an F1 wing near the trailing edge though, which will produce a torque to bend the wing down if you support it at the leading edge.

[marcush.]

you are of course right..but still the fact remains that those wings are quite often supported near the leading edge and there is definetly not where the downforce is .
still I´m aware we are polluting this thread...apologies.

[aral]

[quote][/quote]
Whiteblue. The front wing endplates often vibrate as a car rides the kerbs. This is not peculiar to RBR. Watch ANY slomo and you will see the same. But at the end of the day, flexible wings, front or back , are NOT allowed under the rules, and if there was evidence of ANY team using these, all hell would break use. Remember the flexible barge boards. McLaren front wings, etc??

[Blackout]

W01'B'/W01

W01B: inclined vertical wing fasteners / W01 : straight vertical wing fasteners



The new vertical splitter is also inclined...

[Ganxxta]

To the old Rearwing/Diffusor, I think they aren't developing them because of the ban of DDDs next year, could it be that they won't put money in that because it would be useless next year?

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

To the old Rearwing/Diffusor, I think they aren't developing them because of the ban of DDDs next year, could it be that they won't put money in that because it would be useless next year?

Ganxxta a very pertinant theory.

Why has it not changed year on year as the other teams have? I was sold on stories in Auto Motor und sport that Mercedes would unveil a death star diffuser

Sadly nothing has transpired and I fear its all too late for the W01

[marcush.]

this is outragageous to put it politely...
why should you build a whole new everything and keep the performance realted items undevelopped for two years...it just does not stack up .
The one thing that could be is ,they have had no new idea that worked out in their simulations to top what they currently have.
Or even more freaky ...they decided to renew other aspects of the car first..eg engine cover ,F-duct rearwing ,wheelbase change ...which all keep your composite workshop and Aeroguys including simulations and Modelshop very busy(didn´t we hear they have now airboxes dedicated to the track...) so with reduced headcount =recources available...this could explain why there seems to be a lack of development in the area of front wing (apart from the necessary wingstays and one small development step right at the start of the season for the front wing itself).

I fthey decided to shorten the gearbox this will keep the carbon fibre guys quite busy with then a new rear floor ,engine cover (this time rear half shorter)..again possibly no time to optimise the ddd ..or they decided to do an extra step and raise the gearbox to accomodate a more extremeversion ...who knows.
Fact is they a car that is not dominant .Not even in MonteCarlo.so they have missed the boat somewhere, sad as it is and seem to not yet be sure just why they still lag behind not only RB but also the red and the Macs..

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Marcush

The problem is last year brawn had no money to put into this years car.
Yes they started development early but that means blow all if you cant throw money at it.

The front wing has changed only very slighty, the rear hasnt changed at all and nor has the diffuser.
We were told 3 weeks proir to Bahrain to "expect significant changes".

As a Mercedes fan, I sorely dissapointed in these "upgrades"

[marcush.]

Marcush

The problem is last year brawn had no money to put into this years car.
Yes they started development early but that means blow all if you cant throw money at it.

The front wing has changed only very slighty, the rear hasnt changed at all and nor has the diffuser.
We were told 3 weeks proir to Bahrain to "expect significant changes".

As a Mercedes fan, I sorely dissapointed in these "upgrades"

Honestly speaking I do not buy this
Loic Bigois and his team are in there anyways as are the complete facilities.So starting from the blue screen 8instead of the white paper wich is only correct for Newey todays)i would say there is not much that hold them back .Aerodynamic testing in the tunnel is restricted anyways and the CFD clusters are there ,so its more or less the bill for the power supplies you could save some money.
Obviously Brawn did stop development on their car quite early last year..so time was available.... I have not heard about workworce bieing laid off in the second half of 2009 to save money?
The actual build of parts is much later so not hold back by a lack of funds available during the 2009 season.
No its a lack of new ideas that proved better than what they already had,I think Brawn admitted to something like this when introducing the 2010 front wing already.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Marcush

The problem is last year brawn had no money to put into this years car.
Yes they started development early but that means blow all if you cant throw money at it.

The front wing has changed only very slighty, the rear hasnt changed at all and nor has the diffuser.
We were told 3 weeks proir to Bahrain to "expect significant changes".

As a Mercedes fan, I sorely dissapointed in these "upgrades"

Honestly speaking I do not buy this
Loic Bigois and his team are in there anyways as are the complete facilities.So starting from the blue screen 8instead of the white paper wich is only correct for Newey todays)i would say there is not much that hold them back .Aerodynamic testing in the tunnel is restricted anyways and the CFD clusters are there ,so its more or less the bill for the power supplies you could save some money.
Obviously Brawn did stop development on their car quite early last year..so time was available.... I have not heard about workworce bieing laid off in the second half of 2009 to save money?
The actual build of parts is much later so not hold back by a lack of funds available during the 2009 season.
No its a lack of new ideas that proved better than what they already had,I think Brawn admitted to something like this when introducing the 2010 front wing already.

Not enough ideas in an F1 team is fatal. Mercedes need ideas or what is the point.
Brawn needs to blood new engineers, I think you half agree that the car is still using some parts that were on the BGP like the wing and diffuser.
This is totally unacceptable IMO

very un-mercedes like, but next year we will see. I hope Brawn can pull a rabbit out the hat again because I wanna see benz winning. Fanboy talk sure, but you cannot disagree Mercedes are this years biggest dissapointment

[BreezyRacer]

I would be very surprised to see diffuser development halt. Next year that will be more important than ever. If they thought they were behind with DD diffusers (seemingly the only thing that made this team a marketable entity) how do they ever hope to keep up after a year of ongoing diffuser developments?

Despite it's smaller budget RB seems to be spending it's resources in the best place .. just my opinion but they are always coming up with new ideas and refinements. Of course they also have developed a very exacting infrastructure to measure improvements before they bring out parts. That might even be their biggest asset, even bigger than Newey himself.

If Merc want to be anything more than another Toyota they had better crack the whip .. the bar is high.