Can Red Bull be copied in 2010?

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

With Red Bulls crushing car advantage, is it possible for McLaren, Ferrari, Mercedes or even Renault to adopt the exhaust driven diffuser in 2010?
And is a pullrod suspension implementable mid season?

[WhiteBlue]

Of course you can copy that but it would be a hell of a job. You are talking new gearbox, new floor, new diffusors, new suspension geometry, new dampers, new exhaust, new engine cover and probably a different way to feed the rear end from the front side.

[Just_a_fan]

It would be hugely expensive to do but in theory, yes.

It wouldn't be worth it though - by the time you had it on track and then figured it all out and got a handle on how it needs setting up etc. you'd be at the end of the season.

I can see people doing an RB6-style car in 2011 however. The question is - what will the RB7 be like?

Actually, the original question does hide a more interesting question - which bit of the RB6 is most important in its performance? I think that the design of the front end is the more important bit of the car in this regard because it affects how everything behind it gets "fed". The RB6 front wing is very involved for example.

The RB6 appears to be a bit slow on long straights which suggests that it's not as efficient as some others - the design team probably went for raw d/f in preference to efficient d/f; this is sensible because the cars spend much more of the lap at low/medium speeds where you can pull away from the efficient cars sufficiently to protect yourself at the end of the straights. This is the opposite approach from McLaren who, seemingly, know that they can't generate the raw d/f so went for a system that would give a speed advantage on the straights to help them defend their position at the end of the straight.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Yes, but with homolgation rules can you go from pushrod to pullrod suspension? and if so is that implemenatable quickly?
As an exhaust driven diffuser will require(by my reckoning) a pullrod suspension, it seems like one problem leading to another to another.
Perhaps its too much to make up within a season?

[marcush.]

the big question is which team may have still the recources to do a full analysis of the RB6 concepts with windtunnel/cfd to get an idea what the hell is going on there.
With the curiously big time advantage in Q3 only and on race day at least ferrari and macs creeping closer ,the decision to just drop your ideas and follow Redbull is not an easy one...as one can see with toro rosso the details must be quite subtle that do the trick..

Newey stated more than once that he decided on pullrod assuming ddd would not be feasible and he would not have chosen this solution if he knew before.
For this season they stuck to it because they learned a lot in 2009 about the advantages of pullrod and with ddd banned for 2011 it will be a real benefit...
so a move towards pullrod rear suspension could be a good strategical plan for teams,starting now compromising their season wich is lost anyways but building
knowledge for 2011

[Blackout]

With Red Bulls crushing car advantage, is it possible for McLaren, Ferrari, Mercedes or even Renault to adopt the exhaust driven diffuser in 2010?
And is a pullrod suspension implementable mid season?

why ''even Renault'' ?

[segedunum]

With Red Bulls crushing car advantage, is it possible for McLaren, Ferrari, Mercedes or even Renault to adopt the exhaust driven diffuser in 2010?

No.

And is a pullrod suspension implementable mid season?

No.

[WhiteBlue]

Yes, but with homolgation rules can you go from pushrod to pullrod suspension? and if so is that implemenatable quickly?
As an exhaust driven diffuser will require(by my reckoning) a pullrod suspension, it seems like one problem leading to another to another.
Perhaps its too much to make up within a season?

28.7 a) One specification of each of the following parts must be homologated prior to the first Event of the Championship season :
- survival cell ;
- principal and second roll structures ;
- front, rear and side impact structures ;
- front wheel ;
- rear wheel.
Once homologated, changes to the these parts will only be permitted for clear safety or reliability reasons following written approval from the FIA.

The only element from that list with impact would be the rear impact structure and I don't see that to be so important to the Red Bull rear concept. So the answer is yes, if you have the time and the money.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

With Red Bulls crushing car advantage, is it possible for McLaren, Ferrari, Mercedes or even Renault to adopt the exhaust driven diffuser in 2010?
And is a pullrod suspension implementable mid season?

why ''even Renault'' ?

My bad Blackout. No offence intended

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

the big question is which team may have still the recources to do a full analysis of the RB6 concepts with windtunnel/cfd to get an idea what the hell is going on there.
With the curiously big time advantage in Q3 only and on race day at least ferrari and macs creeping closer ,the decision to just drop your ideas and follow Redbull is not an easy one...as one can see with toro rosso the details must be quite subtle that do the trick..

Newey stated more than once that he decided on pullrod assuming ddd would not be feasible and he would not have chosen this solution if he knew before.
For this season they stuck to it because they learned a lot in 2009 about the advantages of pullrod and with ddd banned for 2011 it will be a real benefit...
so a move towards pullrod rear suspension could be a good strategical plan for teams,starting now compromising their season wich is lost anyways but building
knowledge for 2011

This is true, Torro Rosso does look like 98% Red Bull even in some detailing.
And its for this very reason that I believe Red Bulls advantage lies in their rear pullrod suspension and exhaust driven diffuser, as the Torro Rosso has neither of these and is a good 2 seconds slower.

[marcush.]

it does have pullrod...


reference gearbox :there is a minimum of how many races you have to use your gearbox?

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

it does have pullrod...


reference gearbox :there is a minimum of how many races you have to use your gearbox?

Yes the gearbox must be used for a minimum of 4 consecutive races.

And is the Torro rosso last years RB5 with 2010 DD???

[WhiteBlue]

The gearbox has to be used for four events but it is not homologated. Unless you have already presented all your gearboxes for the season to the FiA for sealing you can start to use a new design IMO.

[pgj]

We have seen time and time again when things get copied they do not always work. One of the biggest problems of trying to reverse engineer an F1 development is that the science is never truly understood. It is not always possible to get to an endpoint without making many wrong turns/failures with each failure contributing to the end-product.

I would say no. It is not possible to copy the RBR car. You may end up with something that looks like the RBR but it won't perform like it.

[timbo]

I don't believe it gives that much of an advantage in the first place.