Internal Drag

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vonk
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Internal Drag

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What are 2010 F1 teams doing to optimize radiator flow and internal drag? Are they using staggered radiators? Are they using Cooling and Exhaust heat productively to offset internal drag?
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WhiteBlue
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Re: Internal Drag

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Some are using forced convection. I saw a pic some days ago with fans on the radiator. I think it was a Red Bull.

Image
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xpensive
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Re: Internal Drag

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:lol: At F1 speeds, that little fan's gonna make no difference whatsoever!

Obviously intended for pilane use only.

And btw, a radiator with air passing thru it is already "forced convection".
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marcush.
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Re: Internal Drag

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those fans are used for non competitive events ,where not much speed is involved and
the car has to idle for prolonged times with speed zero.
in current production cars electric fan power rating up to 1000W (!)per fan is available,but this is very rarely found, the big engines use 850W fans(like for example Porsche Panamera turbo) ,still the power consumption is immense and possibly when such a fan turns on an F1 engine would just die because of the huge load on the electric system.... :lol: :lol:

xpensive
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Re: Internal Drag

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vonk wrote:What are 2010 F1 teams doing to optimize radiator flow and internal drag? Are they using staggered radiators? Are they using Cooling and Exhaust heat productively to offset internal drag?
That picture can still give you a hint to answer your question, using large angled radiators with smaller and optimized air-intake.

But it's not so clear cut, as this method will slow down air-speed thru the radiator, which reduces drag, it will also reduce the level of forced convection. But as drag reduction has a squared relation to said air-speed, it becomes more important than level of convection.
Last edited by xpensive on 29 May 2010, 01:24, edited 2 times in total.
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mx_tifoso
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Re: Internal Drag

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Yup, the image is of an RB# used in shows. More info on it in the Domenican Republic Red Bull show thread.
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Caito
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Re: Internal Drag

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xpensive wrote::lol: At F1 speeds, that little fan's gonna make no difference whatsoever!

Obviously intended for pilane use only.

And btw, a radiator with air passing thru it is already "forced convection".

You made me remember a racing Ford Cobra which had a fan that lit bulbs. What happenned was that the electric motor was actually generating power rather than absorving. Which caused freak things.
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riff_raff
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Re: Internal Drag

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vonk,

A liquid-to-air heat exchanger core requires higher air pressure ahead of the core than behind it, otherwise the airflow would stagnate. So one might consider that a "forced" condition.

As for the size and orientation of the core, it is a compromise between conflicting requirements of core surface area, thickness, pressure drop, heat rejection, rules, etc. The core would produce the least drag if the face (and airflow channels between the fins) were oriented normal to the airflow. But given the heat exchange surface area required and the side pod space available, this would result in a core with a small frontal area and an extreme thickness. Such a thick core would likely produce a high pressure drop and unacceptable flow loss.

Apparently, the better compromise is to use a thin core with large frontal area, but mounted at an angle to the local airflow direction so that it fits within the side pod space. There are still flow losses with this arrangement, since the airflow loses velocity when it has to change direction to pass through the core. But still maybe less than those of a very thick core.

Of course, one notable exception to this was the radiator on the P-51 Mustang. It had a small frontal area and an extreme core thickness, but was purported to have no drag penalty.

Image

So, a well designed heat exchanger and duct installation should produce little, if any, drag penalty. In fact, it may even produce a small net thrust. You need to consider that there is lots of thermal energy being imparted into that cooling air mass that is being accelerated out the duct exit.

riff_raff
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Re: Internal Drag

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Looking at the picture above of the RBR radiator, it very much verifies riff's xplanation of how to design for the least drag,
when the channels are oriented horizontally, surely with an aerodynamic profile, with no vertical fins as far as I can tell?
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riff_raff
riff_raff
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Re: Internal Drag

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xpensive,

In the RB photo, the liquid coolant tubes are horizontal and there are very thin foil fins that zig-zag between them. The foil fins are just difficult to see in that photo. The purpose of the zig-zag foil fins is to maximize the surface area exposed to the passing airflow, while minimizing weight and frontal area.

The coolant tubes pass side-to-side instead of top-to-bottom because that allows a longer flow passage exposed to the airflow. This arrangement tends to give better heat transfer, but also produces a higher pressure drop in the coolant circuit. Like everything in design, it's a matter of the best compromise.

riff_raff
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xpensive
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Re: Internal Drag

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riff,
So, if you cannot see those zig-zag fins, how do you know they are there? :wink:

There are obviously many reasons for the horizontal tubes, but surely drag is one of them, think about it.

X
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riff_raff
riff_raff
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Re: Internal Drag

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xpensive,

I assume those fins are there because that's how the heat gets transferred [-X

Those fins probably increase the core's surface area by 3 or 4 times. In fact, the design of those fins (pitch, density, thickness, etc.) is very important. High performance radiators actually have little tiny louver vents stamped into those fins.

Image

riff_raff
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xpensive
xpensive
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Re: Internal Drag

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riff,
Yes, I am rather well aware how a conventional radiator are built, but there are also xamples of purely tubular coolers, if you can get away with it, it's a huge aerodynamical advantage on a heavily angled radiator like that. Imagine those tubes having a cross-section much wider than high and aerodynamically shaped, it would be typically Newey, wouldn't it?

Anyway, if those fins are there, I'm sure the are set at a steep angle, don't you think?

X
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riff_raff
riff_raff
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Re: Internal Drag

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xpensive,

In order to get the fins more normal to the airflow with an angled core, the core could be made curved rather than flat. It would be more expensive, but such cores have been made for superbikes.

Image

riff_raff
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A: Start with a large one!"

xpensive
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Re: Internal Drag

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Good point riff, this is why I'm so curious about the fins on the steeply angled radiator of that RBR.
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