Turkish GP 2010 - Istanbul Park

[ringo]

I just wish that Vettel showed some race craft, I have yet to see the kind of stuff from him expected of a wunderkid, when THE BOSS seems to demonstrate it nearly every race.

Vettel defended well against THE BOSS when LH tried to pass on the outside into turn 12... and then SV hit his teammate

It's the pressure from the BOSS that caused the crash. Vettel wanted out of the cage match, he didn't want to play anymore. He wanted to hide his tail in front of webber, so he scrambled for cover causing the crash.

Helmut Marko :

"He had to attack otherwise he would have got overtaken by Hamilton( The BoSS ) – it would have been completely different if the McLarens were 10-seconds behind, but that wasn't the case."

running scared it seems. Which other driver instills this kind of fear?

[Mandrake]

Funny how much hatred one single overtaking can create ^^

I'd say let it be a 50-50 and drop it!
Vettel was at fault by (although he only did so very very slightly) pulling to the right (And I also think this is legit since the car with the overlap can dictate the line to a certain extent and MW did so before to Vettel, so why is only MW allowed to "dictate" a line?) while maybe underestimating the presence of MW alongside.

Webber was at fault by just risking that crash. A clever driver would have repositioned himself to repass (as in the Macca example) or at least to be secure in that situation. Additionally if you watch closely Webber might have broken the "only change your line once" rule. He started to stay left, blocking the inside, then went to the right as he saw Vettel coming up initially to his right. Everything ok so far. Then, as Vettel realises MW pulls right he dives to the left and MW does so too closing the gap the the side of the track so give Vettel less room. If you're a strict marshall then it'd be 2 line changes which is against the rules anyways...

Other circumstances contributing to the incident: Very dirty line out there, the braking zone is very very bumpy, 2 McLarens behind looking for a pass. Given those circumstances it was 50% sure Vettel would not be able to brake in straight line, thus leaving some space would have done the deal.

[ISLAMATRON]

Speaking of Hamilton, did he and Button actually touch in turn 1 or was it the way Button hit the kerb? Buttons car seemed to jerk a bit like it had been given a bump.

The front wings extend pass the front wheels... it seemed to me that their front wing endplates collided.

[Mandrake]

Every else except Turn 8! It was like watching a Wil-e Coyote and Roadrunner cartoon the way Webber was pulling away from Hamilton going through turn 8. We need to find out what they are doing to achieve that! The Mclaren package just needs that thing to be complete.

On the other hand if you consider that Redbull is working on their F-Duct, which is currently the giant Plus McLaren has against all the other teams, they will not suffer that much from lower topspeeds anymore. Assuming they can go Flat through turn8 with the F-Duct installed, they'd keep the gap on the straights and pull away in T8.

What I found stunning in the McLaren was the way Hamilton took that last corner complex. He closed up to the bulls and went completely over the inner curbs, a much faster line than the bulls had AND the car kept rock stable....so their suspension was doing a great job in fact.

[mx_tifoso]

It's the pressure from the BOSS that caused the crash. Vettel wanted out of the cage match, he didn't want to play anymore. He wanted to hide his tail in front of webber, so he scrambled for cover causing the crash.

Helmut Marko :

"He had to attack otherwise he would have got overtaken by Hamilton( The BoSS ) – it would have been completely different if the McLarens were 10-seconds behind, but that wasn't the case."

running scared it seems. Which other driver instills this kind of fear?

Your love for Hamilton is [bordering on] disgusting and obscene. Take it down a few notches.

[djos]

It's the pressure from the BOSS that caused the crash. Vettel wanted out of the cage match, he didn't want to play anymore. He wanted to hide his tail in front of webber, so he scrambled for cover causing the crash.

Helmut Marko :

"He had to attack otherwise he would have got overtaken by Hamilton( The BoSS ) – it would have been completely different if the McLarens were 10-seconds behind, but that wasn't the case."

running scared it seems. Which other driver instills this kind of fear?

Your love for Hamilton is [bordering on] disgusting and obscene. Take it down a few notches.

I think Ringo was just taking the P!$$

[ISLAMATRON]

That site is almost as good as http://www.ferraricockslobbers.org

arent you a mod over there too?

[mx_tifoso]

This has nothing to do with you ISLAMATRON. Mind your own business. And this has nothing to do with Ferrari either. You don't see me defending them or pouring my love over them, especially at every opportunity that arises.

That comment was from a normal members point of view. I can't stand the constant adoration of someone. It's not normal.

[ISLAMATRON]

This has nothing to do with you ISLAMATRON. Mind your own business. And this has nothing to do with Ferrari either. You don't see me defending them or pouring my love over them, especially at every opportunity that arises.

That comment was from a normal members point of view. I can't stand the constant adoration of someone. It's not normal.

It was a joke MX, just like Ringo's overhyped posts about LH(and like your hamiltonsackrider.com site), he is joking... lighten up... everyone has their favorites and their biases, it shouldnt bother you no matter how abnormal Ringo's manlove for Hamilton is.

I saw Ringo at the piercing pagoda getting some ear studs being put in so he canlook like LH, but thats his business

on the side: Lou's ear studs are extremely fruity... he needs to stay the hell out of L.A.

[Pandamasque]

Just for the record: that one was funny (I liked '/legs' bit ) this one wasn't. You can do better.

[segedunum]

if anything, bring up back the video and tell us exactly where you see mark move. I bet you can't find it.

Mark clearly looks in his left hand mirror early on, moves the car slightly to the left to block but doesn't move over anywhere near enough to stop Vettel from going through. He then tries to hold his position for reasons which I know not what, because it isn't going to help him regain the place, and the line he is on is not parallel to the side of the track. It doesn't matter whether he doesn't move the wheel or not. It was a stupid and pointless way to defend a position, but not really a surprise. Mark has form.

Vettel did no juking of any kind. He was clearly going through and his slight move to the right was in preparation for braking for the corner where he would have imagined that Webber would be around the outside and where he can't see where Webber is.

Once again, it's caused by a driver's inability to accept that he's lost the position.

No disrespect but what you are saying makes no sense. What you are saying is not actuality. I am honestly trying to follow you but it does not add up.
Show the video and tell us the points in time these moves happen.

I have no idea what you're trying to say there mate. That's exactly what happened. You might as well just say "I don't like what you wrote". Asking for more exact detail than is necessary in order to discredit what's been written which you'll then just ignore is a fallacy.

How can it be stupid and pointless way to defend a position if he doesn't move?

Because he's lost the position. It as simple as that. I don't know how many times I can repeat that. You're incapable of grasping that concept it seems. If he carries on as he is he risks a collision, and he drives diagonally towards the corner so yes he does move over on Vettel.

The man does not move the car!

Yes he does. He's aiming the car diagonally directly to the apex of the corner, so he gradually moves over on Vettel. Saying he doesn't move the car changes nothing about what's actually happening.

People are talking about Mark's right to hold his position, but he loses that right as soon as he loses the position. I'm afraid Vettel has a right to brake for the corner as he pleases. What Mark chooses to do is what dictates whether there is a collision or not.

[segedunum]

Rubbish, your own pic shows webber giving Vettel more room by easing his car slightly to the right!

He never moves the car to the right at any stage, and take a look at where his car is pointing. Is this parallel? No, it isn't:

and these pics prove Webber gave Seb more room:

As Father Ted once said, "These are small, but the ones out there are far away". All you've proved there is that things get bigger as they get closer to you and you've also got the effect of Vettel being closer because he's gradually getting further in front of Webber. Nice one.

[PlatinumZealot]

I think this conspiracy runs deeper than that simple pass though. Helmut Marko almost fully expressed that Mark and Vettel were given team orders. Just read James Allen's blog. Very interesting things going on behind the curtains at RedBull....
Mark Webber is in a very delicate position... I think he finally realises what is going on and he needs to tread very lightly if he wants to have a drive in a top team next year. In fact I think Webber better go an kneel for forgiveness from the golden boy right now! Maybe even wash vettel's feet, give him a back rub and serve him his food and drink every day from now until November!

Mark has to open his eyes. Right now he has to just leave everything on the track. Beat Vettel as hard as possible.. but OFF track, he must drop his pride, just do as much ass kissing, whatever it takes to be there for the end of the season and next year. If he doesn't think this delicate situation out very carefully Team vettel will crush him psychologically and boot him out of the team. It is clear now that they don't need Mark Webber any more, not because of his quality but because he is not subservient to Vettel.

[segedunum]

1. The line Webber took before the Vettel got alongside is irrelevant.

Yes it probably is, but this little fact is irrelevant itself because what happens when Vettel gets alongside is where the problem is.

2. Did Webber leave enough track space for Vettel at all times? Yes, it was ~2m.

I hate to point out some basic geometry, but if you have a parallel line and you drawn another line diagonally towards it then the amount of space between them is not constant.

3. Did Vettel turn right before he got fully ahead of Webber? Yes he did (moving away from the line on the straight), and touched Mark's sidepod with his rear right.

As the car in front it is Vettel's prerogative to brake where he feels he needs to for the corner, and he gave Webber several metres of track space to be in! It's amazing what happens when you apply reverse logic, isn't it?

For some reason Webber can do what he feels like but if Vettel does anything that causes the accident.

Simple as that. End of argument.

It is if you ignore what went on and where the cars were at the time things happened.

[CHT]

F1 cars are not running on rail, so when both Vettel and Webber approaches the corner, it is only natual that both cars will have to move to the right before entering the corner.

The screen shot does show Vettel moving right, but it doesnt show where is Webber relative to the normal racing line.