Turkish GP 2010 - Istanbul Park

[segedunum]

I think this conspiracy runs deeper than that simple pass though. Helmut Marko almost fully expressed that Mark and Vettel were given team orders. Just read James Allen's blog. Very interesting things going on behind the curtains at RedBull....

While it is interesting to debate the accident purely as we saw it, I agree. This was Red Bull's fault and they bloody deserved it. I didn't think they were like this, but they clearly are. That's where the real fault lies because this was going to happen.

To try and manipulate drivers when they are in a one/two position and have their main rivals a few tenths behind is just.............it's so stupid it defies words. Vettel was beaten here and what mattered was the result for Red Bull - no matter what it was and who finished first. The championship wouldn't have been won today.

Mark Webber is in a very delicate position... I think he finally realises what is going on and he needs to tread very lightly if he wants to have a drive in a top team next year.

He's realised it won't be at Red Bull now. While I don't really rate Mark as a driver overall I think he's been treated disgustingly badly after his last two performances, and deserved much better. I had a funny feeling that Raikkonen already had a contract for there next year and what I've seen only makes me even more suspicious about what Red Bull say about Mark and a contract for next year - "Oh, it's all straightforward and we don't want anyone else". Bollocks.

In fact I think Webber better go an kneel for forgiveness from the golden boy right now! Maybe even wash vettel's feet, give him a back rub and serve him his food and drink every day from now until November!

That's the worst thing he can do, but the funny thing is Webber has come out of these manipulations rather better than Vettel. Vettel at times has not looked like the golden boy that we have been told he is, and I didn't like how he lost second to Lewis Hamilton in that race.

[ringo]

It's the pressure from the BOSS that caused the crash. Vettel wanted out of the cage match, he didn't want to play anymore. He wanted to hide his tail in front of webber, so he scrambled for cover causing the crash.

Helmut Marko :

"He had to attack otherwise he would have got overtaken by Hamilton( The BoSS ) – it would have been completely different if the McLarens were 10-seconds behind, but that wasn't the case."

running scared it seems. Which other driver instills this kind of fear?

Your love for Hamilton is [bordering on] disgusting and obscene. Take it down a few notches.

I was adding another dynamic to the crash incident.
but how is it obscene and disgusting comes in? I have not told a lie or gross exaggeration.


But you have to admit, all eyes are on Hamilton. And the pressure he applied did crack the redbulls. Redbull are watching and Ferrari are watching how he moves up the standings.

The question i asked about instilling fear is legitimate, not fanboy banter.

Redbull are well poised to dominate the whole season aside from a couple races. And it's not a crime to give a thumbs up to who has challenged them over the season so far. The guy did a good job overtaking Vettel for second, and piling on the pressure after a poor pit stop strategy.

If you don't want to hear Hamilton's name being called, i can see with that, and I'll turn it down a notch. But if the man is at the centre of most of the action in the race, and cause for concern for the RB6 driver's championship then we got to call it how we see it.

The Webber and Vettel crash argument is being waged by more obscene and disgusting fanboy love after all.

[segedunum]

Definite noticed the car being upset more by the bumps than the RBR.

It certainly was. The movement under braking versus the Red Bulls was bizarre and you could see it going through turn 8 as well. Maybe that's the way they have to run the car, but they must have lost a bit of performance doing that.

[djos]

Rubbish, your own pic shows webber giving Vettel more room by easing his car slightly to the right!

He never moves the car to the right at any stage, and take a look at where his car is pointing. Is this parallel? No, it isn't:

and these pics prove Webber gave Seb more room:

As Father Ted once said, "These are small, but the ones out there are far away". All you've proved there is that things get bigger as they get closer to you and you've also got the effect of Vettel being closer because he's gradually getting further in front of Webber. Nice one.

look at webbers steering wheel, it is clearly not level and F1 cars don't need much input to change direction!!!

[RacingManiac]

can't imagine that helps driver confidence to pass though....with you being slammed into your belts at 5G and bouncing up and down its gotta be pretty odd feeling...

[djos]

Horner is now pretty much admitting Vettel screwed up!!

CHRISTIAN HORNER, Team Principal: “It’s disappointing for the team to have got into that position today. The one thing I always ask the drivers is that, yes, they can race each other, but give each other room, and that’s exactly what didn’t happen. They were too far over on the left, Sebastian got a run on the inside of Mark, but then came across too early. They didn’t give each other room; it’s as simple as that. It was a massively close race between us and the McLarens up until that point. We managed to get ourselves ahead with a better pit-stop and a better strategy for Sebastian and were first and second. Sebastian was a bit happier on the prime tyre than Mark and was looking quicker at that point in the race. He got a run on Mark up the inside and we saw what happened. It’s massively disappointing and the situation shouldn’t have occurred. To give McLaren 28 points on a plate is very frustrating for everyone in the team – especially after so much hard work. We’ve lost a lot of points today with what’s happened. We need to learn from it, so we don’t find ourselves in this position again.”

[Pandamasque]

1. The line Webber took before the Vettel got alongside is irrelevant.

Yes it probably is, but this little fact is irrelevant itself because what happens when Vettel gets alongside is where the problem is.

2. Did Webber leave enough track space for Vettel at all times? Yes, it was ~2m.

I hate to point out some basic geometry, but if you have a parallel line and you drawn another line diagonally towards it then the amount of space between them is not constant.

3. Did Vettel turn right before he got fully ahead of Webber? Yes he did (moving away from the line on the straight), and touched Mark's sidepod with his rear right.

As the car in front it is Vettel's prerogative to brake where he feels he needs to for the corner, and he gave Webber several metres of track space to be in! It's amazing what happens when you apply reverse logic, isn't it?

For some reason Webber can do what he feels like but if Vettel does anything that causes the accident.

Simple as that. End of argument.

It is if you ignore what went on and where the cars were at the time things happened.

You are amazing. The point is that Webber didn't change direction. Seb turned the steering wheel and drove into the side of Mark's car.

I hate to point out some basic geometry, but if you have a parallel line and you drawn another line diagonally towards it then the amount of space between them is not constant.

Both cars ran parallel to the white line for quite a while until Vettel turned right.

[Terrible3]

I think everyone citing that Vettel moved over on Mark as being reckless or to prove a point is missing one key factor... the next turn is a left hander. Mark drove off the racing line to try and defend a lost position holding Vettel on the utter most inside of the track when both cars should have been on the right. Yes mark never changed direction but he was going the wrong direction entering that turn. They came into the entry rumble strips on the opposite side of the track. Vettel wanted to turn right for good reason... to make the dam turn. If Vettel did not turn right what was marks plan, to allow Vettel to understeer into him? I just don't see the point in Marks tactic. Watch LH behind them he had already swung right to enter the turn long before Vettel tried to do the same when MW denied him.

Anyways as far as the theory as Mark making two moves goes, not sure if its true. Mark started to go right as that was the racing line. This would allow him the popper entry into the left turn coming up. Once Mark noticed SV move to the inside mark started to move left and then held a straight line. So to me its one move but this also was a stupid line to hold seeing how there was no chance in the pair making the next turn without an incident after coming in on the left.

In the end I would still call it a racing incident. I don't feel that MW or SV had any intent on crashing each-other out of the race. I would personalty put the blame on MW but its hard for me to fault him as in the heat of the moment I would likely do the same thing. I will admit to some bias as I think Mark is a overly aggressive driver and have felt a lot of his moves in the past have been far more reckless. After loosing out a few races back to SV I can see why he would be keen to try his hardest to keep SV behind him at all costs, however in this case I felt he pushed him limit a little too far. I think MW should be more than happy to have kept his 3ed place and do some damage limitation.

[ringo]

@segedunum, what's the deal with the parallel line gig, aren't both cars supposed to be aiming for the apex? That can't be parallel now, especially not from a camera's perspective view.

I could very well say; Vettel's car did not align with the equator. It doesn't imply he was on a wrong line, because there is no wrong line in the regulations. Bringing up talks of parallel lines is side tracking the issue; which is who turned into who.

Webber can drive any line he pleases on the track so long as he does not steer into his teammates car. He unusually behaved himself and held his line fairly and innocuously.

Vettel came away from the white line and intentionally, by the action of his hands clearly seen to be turning the steering wheel to the right, steered his car into Webber to frighten him.

And in doing so, Webber keeping his car on his chosen line, he contacted Webber; who was not obliged to move to the right and give the golden karate right side round house kick kid the whole track.
It's not the first time Vettel has kicked to the side to frighten drivers, it's happened more than 3 times.

[Mysticf1]

Something that hasnt been mentioned is how Webber handled the constant pressure from Hamilton in the first part of the race, he kept calm and collected in spite of "The boss" being all over him...Helmut Markos comment that Vettel would be overtaken is a poor reflection on Vettel. Webber was robbed by his team because they wanted Vettel to have the points lead...now hes 15 down...not all is lost.

[Jersey Tom]

A racing incident? Sure.

But, bottom line, Vettel put himself in that position. High risk gamble that did not pay off.

[dan]

I changed my mind after watching clips again it looks like Vettels fault to me. I thought Webber had squeezed him too hard by holding his line almost all the way into the braking zone.

But watching it again they look far enough out for Webber to have plently of time to pull back on line and try to cut back. Looks like Vettel moved over too soon trying to get in front of him before the corner or squeeze Webber.

[dumrick]

They came into the entry rumble strips on the opposite side of the track. Vettel wanted to turn right for good reason... to make the dam turn. If Vettel did not turn right what was marks plan, to allow Vettel to understeer into him? I just don't see the point in Marks tactic.

Just see the Button pass on Schumacher to understand what a sensible driver out of the racing line, alongside other car and approaching the braking point has to do: keep straight, brake early, allow the driver in the better line to gain/keep position and make the turn.

The incident was a racing incident, but Vettel's attitude really p***ed me. He's no longer in kindergarden and Webber is an old racer, in a similar car. He should keep his head on his neck if he really wants to get the glory, the list of stunningly fast drivers that didn't succeed is already long...

[Earnard Beccelstone]

Well, Webber didn’t have one of his total horror story weekends, as I forecast, but it was a near run thing.

I’m a Webber fan, so likely a bit biased. I’d put most (but not ALL) of the blame on Sebastian Vettel. Some on Webber and some also on the team.

Mark was obviously slower than Vettel and was probably holding up Hamilton as well. I have read that he was already in fuel saving mode*.

I believe Vettel was likely to pass him at some point, but this particular attempt was poorly executed, and cost Red Bull maximum points for the weekend. With McLaren now ahead, I believe this incident is something that they could rue at the end of the championship.

As a Webber fan, the reaction from the team, particularly Helmut Marko, has surprised may. Although maybe commiserating with the driver that didn’t score any points is actually the best way to play it.


* If Webber WAS in fuel saving mode, how did he push so hard in the last 10 laps, doing five or so comfortable sub-90 second laps around laps 50-55? Fresh rubber makes a difference, but could he have pushed harder around lap 35-40, and so avoided this entire incident in the first place?

[djos]

Horner is now pretty much admitting Vettel screwed up!!

CHRISTIAN HORNER, Team Principal: “It’s disappointing for the team to have got into that position today. The one thing I always ask the drivers is that, yes, they can race each other, but give each other room, and that’s exactly what didn’t happen. They were too far over on the left, Sebastian got a run on the inside of Mark, but then came across too early. They didn’t give each other room; it’s as simple as that. It was a massively close race between us and the McLarens up until that point. We managed to get ourselves ahead with a better pit-stop and a better strategy for Sebastian and were first and second. Sebastian was a bit happier on the prime tyre than Mark and was looking quicker at that point in the race. He got a run on Mark up the inside and we saw what happened. It’s massively disappointing and the situation shouldn’t have occurred. To give McLaren 28 points on a plate is very frustrating for everyone in the team – especially after so much hard work. We’ve lost a lot of points today with what’s happened. We need to learn from it, so we don’t find ourselves in this position again.”