Turkish GP 2010 - Istanbul Park

[Thagirion]

Hello everyone, im new here, the only thing I have to say is that it was a very dangerous move by vettel, but I was very surprised that a driver as experienced as Weber would make a mistake like that.

I have been running in iRacing for the last six months and the first thing you learn is to be careful with other drivers, the moment you push someone else and force them to brake in the dirty side, with you 30cm to his side is the obvious recipe for disaster. The obvious move was to move to the right and take the corner the right way, just like Lewis did afterward, and most likely retake the position.

[WhiteBlue]

I can't believe that people still disregard Webber's move to shut the door on Vettel again. Webber moved left, right and when Vettel went for the inside Webber narrowd the space again and squeezed Vettel to the white line.

viewtopic.php?p=173795#p173795 Tomba mentions it in point 4.

That part of the pass happened directly before the crest and isn't shown in most of the replays. You can only see it when you watch in slow motion from the Vettel on board camera. Had Webber held his line after his first move they would have had at least a full meter of space and Vettel would never had to go on the white line and come right from there.

All the talk is about what happened plenty of time later but you cannot disregard that Webber made a second move and closed the door on Vettel.

[djos]

I can't believe that people still disregard Webber's move to shut the door on Vettel again. Webber moved left, right and when Vettel went for the inside Webber narrowd the space again and squeezed Vettel to the white line.

viewtopic.php?p=173795#p173795 Tomba mentions it in point 4.

That part of the pass happened directly before the crest and isn't shown in most of the replays. You can only see it when you watch in slow motion from the Vettel on board camera. Had Webber held his line after his first move they would have had at least a full meter of space and Vettel would never had to go on the white line and come right from there.

All the talk is about what happened plenty of time later but you cannot disregard that Webber made a second move and closed the door on Vettel.

How about taking off your German Flag coloured Glasses WB

and just admit that Vettel Screwed up, Even Christian Horner can see that!

CHRISTIAN HORNER, Team Principal: "Sebastian got a run on the inside of Mark, but then came across too early.”

[mr moda]

So what???
Webber is in the lead and he is defending his position.
If Vettel wants to put himself into the position he did then he reaps what he sows.
In this instance he was never going to pull up in time anyway.
As for Markos explanation of the Mclarens were catching Vettel so he had to pass Webber is so ridiculous it,s laughable.
If Vettel cant stand the pressure of being caught by a rival he best think about a career change.

[WhiteBlue]

How about taking off your German Flag coloured Glasses WB

and just admit that Vettel Screwed up..

These kind of nationalistic comments are not helpful to the discussion!!

You cover the Australian view. I cover a German view. That is legit. So we better do not attack each other over that.

I was making a valid point that Webber made a second move. Tomba realized that as well. He is not wearing German glasses.

[Jersey Tom]

All the talk is about what happened plenty of time later but you cannot disregard that Webber made a second move and closed the door on Vettel.

Well.. I still say it's what happened before that matters. When you race in close proximity at high speed there's always the potential for crap to happen, and it did. The subtle points of the split-second decisions that were made are almost a moot point. Webber could have gone wider, or Vettel could have not turned into him. At that point it's twitch reflexes as much as anything.

Either way, as a driver, you KNOW that you have the potential to get into a wreck in that sort of maneuver.

Vettel could have just been patient.. could have talked with the team.. but instead he threw the dice. He took a gamble and it didn't pan out. Instead of gaining a few points he lost a bunch. I'd venture to say no, and that ultimately it's on him - he put himself in that position.

The question worthy of debate is if the decision to make a pass and throw his car in under the brakes was warranted at all, particularly given that stage of the race.. the comfortable 1-2 position, etc.

[mr moda]

Exactly. The way people are carrying on is ridiculous. First webber is lampooned for not being aggressive . Then he ridiculed for being to aggressive. Now he is being ridiculed for wait for it..... NOT LEAVING ROOM FOR A CAR TO GET BY HIM WHILST LEADING.

[WhiteBlue]

The question worthy of debate is if the decision to make a pass ... was warranted at all, particularly given that stage of the race.. the comfortable 1-2 position, etc.

What do you mean by that?

Vettel was running faster than Webber because he had better tyres and more fuel left. He was under pressure from Hamilton who was faster on the back straight all the time. By passing Webber Vettel could completely avoid any danger of being passed by Hamilton by using his higher speed.

In that situation the team should have recognized that the slower man should better take the rear guard action. A swap of positions of the Red Bulls or a pass by Hamilton on the trailing Red Bull was obviously going to happen sooner or later. Red Bull later acknowledged that Webber's race engineer screwed up and failed to pass the team order on Mark to let Seb pass.

So there is no question about the pass making sense. The team screwed up in the first place because they did not let the faster of their drivers take the lead.

[djos]

These kind of nationalistic comments are not helpful to the discussion!!

You cover the Australian view. I cover a German view. That is legit. So we better do not attack each other over that.

I was making a valid point that Webber made a second move. Tomba realized that as well. He is not wearing German glasses.

WB im extreemly supportive of Webber but when he fk's up I'll at least man up and say so - a perfect example was Mark letting Vettel get up the inside of him in Malaysia at the first corner and loosing the lead. Webber also fk'd up driving into the back of Lewis in Australia, shall I go on?

I like Vettel a lot, he's my second favorite F1 Driver but the fact is he made the mistake which caused the crash, not Webber!

[djos]

In that situation the team should have recognized that the slower man should better take the rear guard action. A swap of positions of the Red Bulls or a pass by Hamilton on the trailing Red Bull was obviously going to happen sooner or later. Red Bull later acknowledged that Webber's race engineer screwed up and failed to pass the team order on Mark to let Seb pass.

So there is no question about the pass making sense. The team screwed up in the first place because they did not let the faster of their drivers take the lead.

WB, Webber was never instructed by anyone to let Seb past nor was there any intention for team orders to be passed on, Seb was being oportunistic with his final lap of full power and then failed to give Mark any respect by assuming he would Roll over and play dead!

[Gary]

I must say I've never seen Helmut Marko as a comedian but perhaps I should now. Here's a question followed by the good doc's answer as quoted in the official F1 website

Q: Red Bull team principal Christian Horner said he didn’t believe it was Vettel’s fault. Is this the official opinion of the team?
HM: Well, in the situation Sebastian was in, he had no other choice than to act the way he did.

"...he had no other choice than to act the way he did"!!! Wunderbar!

He had no other choice than to go for a move on the dirty side, where the surface was undoubtedly bumpy, against a guy not known for saying "After you" in overtaking situations and then either arrogantly or foolishly trying to resume the racing line before he was fully past.

Helmut, he had all the choice in the world, starting with "Uh-oh, this isn't going to work this lap, better to be a little more patient'.

[marcush.]

I´d call this selective perceiption ,at best.they --- up ,the whole bunch ,Horner ,Dr.Marko ,webber ,Vettel.And they know.and what happens? shitty fingerpointing .More loss of credibilty on the human side .
instead of reeling in a maximum points finish their only true competitor has bagged all those points ,bravo... =D> =D>
these chaps should look into the mirror and ask themselves if they really know and communicate what is the aim of RedBull and how it is to be put into reality.

[WhiteBlue]

I like Vettel a lot, he's my second favorite F1 Driver but the fact is he made the mistake which caused the crash, not Webber!

I think it is not always helpfull to look for a "mistake" in all situations. They both did not drive very prudently.

Webber was too robust for my taste in his second move to close the space. This created the problem for Vettel in the first place that they had very little space.

When Vettel started to go right it was also a very risky move. He knew that Webber was close to him and probably thought he would be given room due to being now some 2 m ahead.

Vettel might have thought at this time that Webber had already been given team order to let him pass. So there could have been a miscommunication that led him to make that decision. It is easy to just look at the single point of Vettel turning in on Webber and condemn him, but I saw the situation as a bit more complex.

I agree with some people who attribute partial fault to both drivers and I also think the team did a dumb thing to let them race that long in that situation.

[WhiteBlue]

WB, Webber was never instructed by anyone to let Seb past nor was there any intention for team orders to be passed on, Seb was being oportunistic with his final lap of full power and then failed to give Mark any respect by assuming he would Roll over and play dead!

I agree that Webber wasn't instructed to let Vettel pass. I disagree that there was no intention from the Red Bull team to give the team order. There is a clear statement from Red Bull that the team order was imminent. They had the small problem that such things have to be done in coded form nowadays. So they cannot officially talk about it. I will look it up and quote it.

http://formula-1.updatesport.com/news/a ... /view.html?

Webber was slower and Vettel had immense pressure from Hamilton. Unfortunately, Mark was not told about the situation accurately by his race engineer.

[djos]

Please do, I can't find anything about team orders anywhere???