Turkish GP 2010 - Istanbul Park

[WhiteBlue]

Please do, I can't find anything about team orders anywhere???

I gave the quote by editing the my post further up.

Team order can only be given nowadays when the driver who is asked to help the team agrees to that decision. Red Bull screwed up by not agreeing to the necessary communication protocol before the race.

I believe that Vettel had better tyres and more fuel which gave him more power on the back straight. He had saved fuel before. Some people do not believe that was true. They think that Red Bull was in the process of screwing Webber for Vettel's sake.

Obviously one can hold different opinions on that. If Vettel had a genuine advantage and Red Bull was going to let the drivers trade posotions it is a real shame that Vettel wasn't told to hold back for a lap or two until they had this thing sorted.

If there was a mistake that Vettel made, it probably was his impatience. A bit more patience and the race would have probably been his.

[marcush.]

why did Vettel leave the track early? would noone hold him back ,as you are obliged to wait for the race stuarts to hear your version of the events after the race?

[djos]

Please do, I can't find anything about team orders anywhere???

I gave the quote by editing the my post further up.

Team order can only be given nowadays when the driver who is asked to help the team agrees to that decision. Red Bull screwed up by not agreeing to the necessary communication protocol before the race.

I believe that Vettel had better tyres and more fuel which gave him more power on the back straight. He had saved fuel before. Some people do not believe that was true. They think that Red Bull was in the process of screwing Webber for Vettel's sake.

Obviously one can hold different opinions on that. If Vettel had a genuine advantage and Red Bull was going to let the drivers trade posotions it is a real shame that Vettel wasn't told to hold back for a lap or two until they had this thing sorted.

If there was a mistake that Vettel made, it probably was his impatience. A bit more patience and the race would have probably been his.

WB that's not Team orders, that's Helmet being a 1 eyed Vettel supporter and sprouting crap as usual - especially after his comments last year claiming that things where bad between Webber and the team over Webber wanting to keep Flav as his manager, I don't believe anything he says! (which later turned out to be complete BS)

[WhiteBlue]

Please do, I can't find anything about team orders anywhere???

I gave the quote by editing the my post further up.

Team order can only be given nowadays when the driver who is asked to help the team agrees to that decision. Red Bull screwed up by not agreeing to the necessary communication protocol before the race.

I believe that Vettel had better tyres and more fuel which gave him more power on the back straight. He had saved fuel before. Some people do not believe that was true. They think that Red Bull was in the process of screwing Webber for Vettel's sake.

Obviously one can hold different opinions on that. If Vettel had a genuine advantage and Red Bull was going to let the drivers trade posotions it is a real shame that Vettel wasn't told to hold back for a lap or two until they had this thing sorted.

If there was a mistake that Vettel made, it probably was his impatience. A bit more patience and the race would have probably been his.

WB that's not Team orders, that's Helmet being a 1 eyed Vettel supporter and sprouting crap as usual - especially after his comments last year claiming that things where bad between Webber and the team over Webber wanting to keep Flav as his manager, I don't believe anything he says! (which later turned out to be complete BS)

I'm still researching what the fuel situation was. I think that was the key to the whole thing. If Vettel had 5 kg more fuel - which is not so realistic - he needed to get past Webber and quickly to use the advantage before Hamilton caught him.

I will try to find out what the fuel situation was and will come back.

[Mysticf1]

What i don't understand from Helmet's comments is how is swapping positions helping the situation regarding Hamilton overtaking and splitting the redbulls? Surely if Vettel took the lead then Webber would have been in the firing line instead...it really stinks of favouratism.

http://joesaward.wordpress.com/2010/05/ ... -disaster/

Excellent analysis from Joe as usual

[WhiteBlue]

What i don't understand from Helmet's comments is how is swapping positions helping the situation regarding Hamilton overtaking and splitting the redbulls? Surely if Vettel took the lead then Webber would have been in the firing line instead...it really stinks of favouratism.

http://joesaward.wordpress.com/2010/05/ ... -disaster/

Excellent analysis from Joe as usual

As I said the fuel situation is the key to that. Webber was so slow that Hamilton would have probably overtaken him. They may have tried to get Vettel passed Webber to let him run with higher fuel setting to the end. For that to work he would have had to carry significantly more fuel.

[djos]

What i don't understand from Helmet's comments is how is swapping positions helping the situation regarding Hamilton overtaking and splitting the redbulls? Surely if Vettel took the lead then Webber would have been in the firing line instead...it really stinks of favouratism.

http://joesaward.wordpress.com/2010/05/ ... -disaster/

Excellent analysis from Joe as usual

Agreed, very well constructed.

[WhiteBlue]

I found out:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/84050

The large mistake remains that not enough room was given, and the explanation is there on how Sebastian had managed to get into the tow. He had managed to save an extra kilogramme of fuel - as both cars start the race with the same amount of fuel. Effectively he had one more lap of the optimum engine mode, but we couldn't back him off because he was under pressure from Lewis Hamilton behind.

Ok, here we learn that Vettel had only one or two laps with the advantage of a higher fuel mode. So the speed advantage wasn't sustainable! I rest my case. I agree with you guys that Red Bull did not have a strong point to let the drivers swap position.

It explains why Vettel was so impatient. He would have had to switch to fuel economy mode in the next lap as well.

With this issue clarified I'm prepared to look back at the incident:

Under those conditions Vettel could not expect Webber to concede the place. Webber was quite mean to close the gap a second time but it wasn't the decisive move. I say that the blame is 75/25 for Vettel/Webber.

[djos]

I found out:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/84050

The large mistake remains that not enough room was given, and the explanation is there on how Sebastian had managed to get into the tow. He had managed to save an extra kilogramme of fuel - as both cars start the race with the same amount of fuel. Effectively he had one more lap of the optimum engine mode, but we couldn't back him off because he was under pressure from Lewis Hamilton behind.

Ok, here we learn that Vettel had only one or two laps with the advantage of a higher fuel mode. So the speed advantage wasn't sustainable! I rest my case. I agree with you guys that Red Bull did not have a strong point to let the drivers swap position.

It explains why Vettel was so impatient. He would have had to switch to fuel economy mode in the next lap as well.

With this issue clarified I'm prepared to look back at the incident:

Under those conditions Vettel could not expect Webber to concede the place. Webber was quite mean to close the gap a second time but it wasn't the decisive move. I say that the blame is 75/25 for Vettel/Webber.

WB, nice to see you re-evaluating the situation in a logical manner.

[tok-tokkie]

I never liked James Allen as a commentator - though he improved as he went along. His internet site has surprised me by being pretty good. His post about Webber's very difficult position now is a very useful perspective to have for what follows.

Joe Saward adds to that perspective.

I thought it was Vettel at fault but the long debate here makes me see it a little differently.

---------------------

WB congratulations for the way you handle some very unpleasant posts directed at you.

[TheRMVR]

How I see it:

Vettel was under pressure by Hamilton and clearly quicker dan Webber. So he decided to overtake him.

Both made a mistake during the overtaking session. First of all Webber defended way too wide, he didn't give Vettel enough space, although Vettel's car was already 2m in front of him so he should have backed off.

Vettel made the mistake to think that Webber would back off easily so he steered to the right thinking that Webber would also go to the right. He didn't.

Stupid mistake from both of them. Now learn and move on.

[TheRMVR]

What do you guys think about that weird interview Whitmarsh gave after the race on BBC to Jordan and Coulthard?
It seems like team orders are back

[andartop]

It all comes down to the whole team orders debate. Surely it's against the "spirit" of the sport, but it is supposed to be a team sport after all. Also, I always found it so naive (at best) or pretentious (at worst) to be talking about ethos in modern era sports where millions of $$$ are at stakes..

So here are a few thoughts:

a) It is certainly ridiculous to have team orders a la Ferrari A1 ring with Rubens having to slow down and hand his position to MS. That, is no good.

b) It is also equally ridiculous IMHO to have team mates crashing and wasting an almost certain 1-2 finish 2/3rds into the race. That, is also not good.

c) Introducing rules to prevent team orders is a joke. Teams will always find ways to cheat there if they want to. They can call someone in to the pits for "safety" reasons, they can ask drivers to slow down to save tires or fuel, they can ask them to lower the revs, they can agree even before the start of a race that whoever is in front after the first corner stays in front. The only purpose such rules may serve is to make the whole business less obvious for some crowds or blinded fanboys.

d) For the spectators, of course it is best if team orders are not issued before the last stages of a race. From a "moral" perspective though, this is also a joke: whether issued before the race or on the last lap, team orders are still team orders... you either allow them or you don't. From the point of view of messing about with the results of a race, it is not much different at all to have one of your drivers crash deliberately or have him "save fuel" when his team mate is a few tenths behind and charging with 3 laps to go..

e) Based on all these, the only realistic options to me appear to be either to allow the teams to do whatever they please with their drivers, and let the fans judge them as they will, or have every team run one car only!!! Of course, none of these options appear to be very good for the sport either..

[strad]

I told you Vettel was immature and today he proved it. That was one stupid, ill conceived move.

[strad]

First of all Webber defended way too wide

Watch again...Webber never moves an inch from the line he was on...He never knew the idiot was coming til he was there and smashing into him...It was dumb dumb dumb by Vettel.