Is Vettel overrated? What do you think

[sAx]

Whats this obsession with overrated and talent? To win an F1 event you have to have talent for christ's sake, regardless of the car, yet there is an obsession with beating down every successful driver with an 'overrated' or 'untalented' stick.

A driver has a run of success and rather than being aplauded like they should be, instead there is a backlash, it starts when idiots get the idea that they should hold the opposite opinion of a driver to everyone else just for the sake of being different and individual, soon everybody is at it and then the idiots all hold the same opinion anyway, and it becomes the fashion to denounce every --- driver without thinking.

The trouble with F1 becoming more popular is that it has drawn in a vast quantity of idiots and armchair racing drivers who pass themselves off as 'fans', the majority of you know sod all about what it takes to win at the top level so save your stupid judgements.

None of the drivers on the F1 grid got where they are without talent, especially in the case of Webber, being one of the drivers who worked his way up the traditional way instead of being groomed by an F1 team on a fast track from Karting. Sometimes things and people are highly rated because they are actually good!

Discussion would be so much easier if stupid people aren't allowed opinions. I'm sick to the back teeth of the stupid attitudes an opinions that the majority of F1 'fans' hold these days. Too much of an obsession with underdogs.

You all need to stop talking out of your uninformed arses.

Extremely well put. Every driver of a Formula car is quick in out and out terms and generally would all be closely matched in the same car. The only real difference is as Aryton once put it:

'Every driver is fast, but only the good ones are fast all the time'

sAx

[Raptor22]

Wheel ahead, nose ahead,makes no difference, ahead is ahead whichever way you try to spin semantics.

being ahead and having the insideline gives hime right of way and therefore Webber must stay clear.

Look at the button Hamilton overtake. Button kept clear but gave him enough room. They entered the corner even stevens and Button still kept clear because Lewis had the line into turn 12.
Thereafter advantaged passed to button and Lewis gave him room while lining himself up for a good run onto the straight.

So yes I watched the same race and have raced karts and understand the rules of engagement. Webber was wrong, plain and simple. All the sarcasm in the world doesn't change the facts;

- Vettel was ahead,
- Vettel had the inside
- Vettel has right of way
- it was Webber's duty to keep clear

Vettels mistake was overestimating Webbers integrity

[ISLAMATRON]

Wheel ahead, nose ahead,makes no difference, ahead is ahead whichever way you try to spin semantics.

being ahead and having the insideline gives hime right of way and therefore Webber must stay clear.

There is a huge difference between "side-by-side" and "ahead"... the passing car allways has the responsibility to pass cleanly... you are clearly and plainly wrong, Vettel ran into webber, no question about it.

What Vettel effectively did was turn into a car that was in his blind spot, except he had just pulled along side that car so he knew it was still there.

"ahead" is only "ahead" when the rearmost part of the car is clear of the nose of the other car... watch some oval racing where the spotter is telling the driver "outside, outside, outside, clear" you thinkthe sppotter says clear when his driver nose is 1 foot further ahead of the other car's nose? absolutely not... the passing driver can not change line or "lanes" if you will until he is totally clear of the car he is passing.

[Raptor22]

Vettel had drawn alongside cleanly. It was Webber who tried to hsove him onto the grass. Dirty move #1.

Vettel draws ahead and Webber tucks in closer.
Vettel starts to drift to the right to take up his line and they touch.

webbers dirty move #2.

As has been mentioned vettel had the line for the corner and had drawn ahead. Even if not a cars length ahead, that corner belonged to Vettel by virtue of the inside line.

Webber is at fault.

[nipo]

- Vettel was ahead,
- Vettel had the inside
- Vettel has right of way
- it was Webber's duty to keep clear

Exactly! Mark did just that! Seb moved over - BANG! Or was I watching a different race?

What is all this nonsense?

[Pandamasque]

Vettel had drawn alongside cleanly. It was Webber who tried to hsove him onto the grass. Dirty move #1.

Which race were you watching again?

[Remote_Access]

Wheel ahead, nose ahead,makes no difference, ahead is ahead whichever way you try to spin semantics.

I'm afraid it's not as clear cut as that. If it were, there would be no discussion about it. Who are you to make such a determination?

Vettel had drawn alongside cleanly. It was Webber who tried to hsove him onto the grass. Dirty move #1.

If anything, Webber was moving to the right.

Webber is at fault.

Both drivers are at fault and they both lost for it. Being so absolute will get you nowhere. You are on your own.

[segedunum]

I think he is overrated more than ever now. Most of his speed comes from driving the car just the other side of the limit, braking late with a lot of lateral movement as he gets the power on through the corner. You can see how wide he gets on the kerbs sometimes and Australia in qualifying was a perfect example. It was faster than most, but is that really as fast as that Red Bull could go? Naturally, that style doesn't work at Monaco, and if you're going to be a star driver then you always have to go well at Monaco. Vettel has shown no promise there at all. Although any driver will occasionally beat his team mate, if Vettel is as good as people say there is no way he should ever get beat by Webber by as much as he has done on occasions. Red Bull tried to explain away Barcelona and Monaco as a strange chassis problem.

At the start at Turkey he easily got away from Hamilton and took second place. He should have then relaxed got his braking right for the first corner, kept a clean line and Hamilton would have no chance to get back at him. What he did was try to take too much speed into the first corner in an effort to stay ahead, got out of shape and went too wide allowing Hamilton back at him and then he appeared to get too defensive losing him the place. In a way he was almost Webber-like.

I think he's yet another driver who's looked good initially who has simply got into Formula One too early. I was willing to give him the benefit of the doubt but I can't any more, and that's culminated in him possibly realising that there is a problem with himself. Red Bull can only cover up so much that he isn't quite as good as people thought he was.

[marcush.]

I think he is overrated more than ever now. Most of his speed comes from driving the car just the other side of the limit, braking late with a lot of lateral movement as he gets the power on through the corner. You can see how wide he gets on the kerbs sometimes and Australia in qualifying was a perfect example. It was faster than most, but is that really as fast as that Red Bull could go? Naturally, that style doesn't work at Monaco, and if you're going to be a star driver then you always have to go well at Monaco. Vettel has shown no promise there at all. Although any driver will occasionally beat his team mate, if Vettel is as good as people say there is no way he should ever get beat by Webber by as much as he has done on occasions. Red Bull tried to explain away Barcelona and Monaco as a strange chassis problem.

At the start at Turkey he easily got away from Hamilton and took second place. He should have then relaxed got his braking right for the first corner, kept a clean line and Hamilton would have no chance to get back at him. What he did was try to take too much speed into the first corner in an effort to stay ahead, got out of shape and went too wide allowing Hamilton back at him and then he appeared to get too defensive losing him the place. In a way he was almost Webber-like.

I think he's yet another driver who's looked good initially who has simply got into Formula One too early. I was willing to give him the benefit of the doubt but I can't any more, and that's culminated in him possibly realising that there is a problem with himself. Red Bull can only cover up so much that he isn't quite as good as people thought he was.

+1
Webber is in my view a good driver and in a year like 2010 he has what it needs to be champ.
But then look at Vettel.He has the ultimate machine in the RBR6 ,no doubt about it.
The advantage looks similar to what Button had in 2009 .
yet he does struggle to reel in the results at this time of year,and make no bones about it Macs are closing the gap sooner than we all anticipated.
Canada is going to be macs territory and who knows what Ferrari,renault and Mercedes are going to come up with in the next weeks...golden opportunity not used.I´m sure Webber will make more points in those races when it is not possible to win.

[donskar]

I see a parallel this year between RBR and McL: In each team you have a brilliant young driver against an older veteran.

IMHO, both Vettel and Hamilton can learn from their older, more experienced partner and become even better drivers. Losing to Webber will make Vettel a better driver long-term -- or destroy him. Racing against Button will make Hamilton better, with less potential downside, because he has already gained a lot of success.

[ringo]

I think he is overrated more than ever now. Most of his speed comes from driving the car just the other side of the limit, braking late with a lot of lateral movement as he gets the power on through the corner. You can see how wide he gets on the kerbs sometimes and Australia in qualifying was a perfect example. It was faster than most, but is that really as fast as that Red Bull could go? Naturally, that style doesn't work at Monaco, and if you're going to be a star driver then you always have to go well at Monaco. Vettel has shown no promise there at all. Although any driver will occasionally beat his team mate, if Vettel is as good as people say there is no way he should ever get beat by Webber by as much as he has done on occasions. Red Bull tried to explain away Barcelona and Monaco as a strange chassis problem.

At the start at Turkey he easily got away from Hamilton and took second place. He should have then relaxed got his braking right for the first corner, kept a clean line and Hamilton would have no chance to get back at him. What he did was try to take too much speed into the first corner in an effort to stay ahead, got out of shape and went too wide allowing Hamilton back at him and then he appeared to get too defensive losing him the place. In a way he was almost Webber-like.

I think he's yet another driver who's looked good initially who has simply got into Formula One too early. I was willing to give him the benefit of the doubt but I can't any more, and that's culminated in him possibly realising that there is a problem with himself. Red Bull can only cover up so much that he isn't quite as good as people thought he was.

The interesting thing with what you say here, is how Vettel finds his speed. He knows how to ring off fast laps, and knows how to qualify. What I think you are saying here, and i agree, is that he does not realize that when it comes to being followed or defending, the best way around the track is not the fastest line, but the line that protects your position on the track.
His style is a time attack style, that works well when you are the only one on the track or you are leading by 10 seconds. He drives very wide and uses the track well. He uses under steer to his advantage and gets on the power early on exit. I'd say his strength is exiting the turns. This style is fast, very fast, but it does not protect against an attacking driver placing his car to obstruct Vettel's fast line.
That driver may compromise his lap time with that attacking line, but it does the job of overtaking the guy sticking to the ideal line.

With that, i think Vettel needs to learn how to race with other drivers on track and be more conscious of the surroundings. He was nurtured too much on the simulator, where it's just you and the track. He should see that the fastest line can make you vulnerable if you're being followed.

[WhiteBlue]

Vettel simply is the faster of the two Red Bull drivers when his car is intact and without damage.

Definitely in Monaco and probably also in Spain Vettel's Lucious Liz tub had received damage to the lower front wishbone pivot point. A crack was propagating through the tub that reduced the rigidity of the chassis. The front part of the chassis gave way and the suspension geometry wasn't true any more. Consequently it became difficult to heat up the tyres and position the car into the corners.

With chassis 02 (previously Webber's) Vettel outpaced Webber in almost every stint and session of practise and qualifying during the Turkey weekend. From the free practice sessions Webber only managed one faster time in one of the four stints they did. Vettel was on a faster Q3 qualifying run until turn 12 when his right rear shock linkage came loose and the lower wishbone broke. According to AMuS the sector times show that he lost more than half a second compared to his previous fastest lap. Red Bull again had the slower man on pole. It should have been Vettel. The linkage failure lead to Webber being ahead of Vettel during the first 40 laps of the race. Vettel had to pass Hamilton twice to get back to P2 only to be held up by Webber.

In the "What goes on at Red Bull" thread it became quite clear that the team issued team tactics in Turkey to bring the faster of the two drivers to the front. On lap 38 Webber realized that Vettel was applying pressure and asked the team to back him off. The team decided to let Vettel pass but the info not to fight Vettel was withheld by Webber's race engineer Cireon Pilbeam. Instead of the proper information he was supposed to give Webber he gave him a previously arranged coded signal to push his overtaking button. The info that Webber was not to fight Vettel was only given to Vettel. Vettel obviously thought that Webber would let him on the racing line. In order to go safely around the left hander Vettel needed at least his right wheels on the racing line which was at the other side of the track. He assumed that Webber was cooperating, drifted right towards the racing line, collided and was surprised that his team mate did not follow the team tactic. This was quite obvious by the hand gestures he made when he walked away from his stricken car.

Although you can dispute the legitimacy of team orders and the fairness of having to yield to a team mate one should not blame Vettel for driving into Webber. Most likely he was not to blame for that because he must have thought the "racing" was only put on for show by the team. He was the faster driver that weekend and he knew it.

How can we conclude that Vettel is overrated? I don't think it is a fair assessment at all. Vettel at least during this weekend - while his car was not broken - was the faster Red Bull driver. This was generally be true for most of the year except for 10 days between Spain and Monaco. Webber had a short advantage because Vettel's chassis was damaged. Webber obviously had lost that advantage again when they came to Turkey and Vettel used his old chassis 02. I trust that Vettel will naturally get the upper hand again from Canada due to his higher pace that he has shown almost all of the time.

[myurr]

WhiteBlue - you tell a good story, but there are several holes that call into question the entire yarn.

Do you believe for one second that Vettel thought that Webber was going to let him by unimpeded when he forced him right to the white line to get past him and then held that position!? Would Cireon Pilbeam still be in his job had he deliberately witheld information from his driver, and instead issued a secret code word telling him to fight Vettel by pushing the overtake button!? Even Webber would be mad at him if a team order had been issued that Cireon personally decided to withold.

When comparing the practice times you conveniently omit that not only did Webber suffer mechanical issues costing him a lot of running, but the cars were also not equal. Vettel had a new rear wing (I believe just the end plates were different) that was only fitted to Webbers car 5 minutes before qualifying. We also have no idea what fuel loads were being carried, etc.

Yes Vettel lost out in Q3 due to a suspension problem and he may well have managed pole or second on the grid (which wouldn't have helped as Hamilton demonstrated the problems of starting on the dirty side of the track), but he didn't. And in the first stint of the race he did nothing to demonstrate he was faster - he was close on pace but certainly wasn't being held up by Hamilton or Webber as there was a couple of seconds gap. He was also overtaken by Hamilton on that first lap let's not forget.

In the second stint he again held station until suddenly he was able to speed up for a couple of laps. We later find out that this was because he had saved 1 kilo of fuel which allowed him to run the engine on a higher setting for a couple of laps, and via this he was able to catch and pull alongside Webber. There is nothing to suggest that on the next lap when he would have had to turn the engine down that he would have been able to run any faster than Webber.

Vettel has proven time and again that he considers it perfectly acceptable to try and frighten or bully other drivers. He has done this multiple times this year and even once earlier in the race when Hamilton was attempting a pass - and arguably is the only reason that Lewis was unable to get past on that occasion.

So we have Vettel attempting a pass on Webber, not only for victory but also for the lead of the championship. Given his history why is it so beyond the realms of possibility that he decided to stamp his psychological authority over Webber by pushing him across the circuit? However Webber didn't buckle and Vettel caused a collision through his actions.

The problem I have with your version of events is that it's all based on speculation that in turn is based on information that has had to have come from the team - a team which has spent the last week publicly briefing against one of their drivers whilst defending against the other. There is absolutely no doubt that over the past week the team have issued half truths and fabrications in their defence of Vettel and character assassination of Webber. They can't exactly be called reliable witnesses at the moment can they!?

[Chaparral]

Whats this obsession with overrated and talent? To win an F1 event you have to have talent for christ's sake, regardless of the car, yet there is an obsession with beating down every successful driver with an 'overrated' or 'untalented' stick.

A driver has a run of success and rather than being aplauded like they should be, instead there is a backlash, it starts when idiots get the idea that they should hold the opposite opinion of a driver to everyone else just for the sake of being different and individual, soon everybody is at it and then the idiots all hold the same opinion anyway, and it becomes the fashion to denounce every --- driver without thinking.

The trouble with F1 becoming more popular is that it has drawn in a vast quantity of idiots and armchair racing drivers who pass themselves off as 'fans', the majority of you know sod all about what it takes to win at the top level so save your stupid judgements.

None of the drivers on the F1 grid got where they are without talent, especially in the case of Webber, being one of the drivers who worked his way up the traditional way instead of being groomed by an F1 team on a fast track from Karting. Sometimes things and people are highly rated because they are actually good!

Discussion would be so much easier if stupid people aren't allowed opinions. I'm sick to the back teeth of the stupid attitudes an opinions that the majority of F1 'fans' hold these days. Too much of an obsession with underdogs.

You all need to stop talking out of your uninformed arses.

Good stuff jshaw youve captured the essense of what most forums content these days consist of - fan boys, wannabe's, armchair experts who havent a clue (Gunther comes to mind) - mind you there are some very informed people (actually involved in racing in some form or another) on this forum also who can and do pass on their knowledge which is greatly appreciated. Obviously as an Australian Ive followed and barracked for Mark through his career and he now has a car that gives him the opportunity to show his wares and he's doing it - he actually reminds me of Sir Jack in his approach to his racing he's fair but loves a scrap and will not just move over and good on him - in this 'sanitised' enviroment F1 is these days where its business before sport thats refreshing. Vettel is very talented thats not an issue but he's wet behind the ears when it comes to 'old school' racing - however RBR are looking at it from a marketing point of view (and yep thats fine also) - but I believe this has been going on for around 18 months now where it does appear that RBR hierarchy are favouring Vettel (above all else) - after Marks win at the German GP last year his partner Anne came into the teams area and in deep conversation was Horner & Marko and one of the team said to her 'great win by Mark today' to which she has supposed to have replied 'at least someone appreciates the win' - it was like a morgue - kind of tells you a lot really doesnt it

[donskar]

@ WhiteBlue: Please clarify:

Definitely in Monaco and probably also in Spain Vettel's Lucious Liz tub had received damage to the lower front wishbone pivot point. A crack was propagating through the tub that reduced the rigidity of the chassis. The front part of the chassis gave way and the suspension geometry wasn't true any more. Consequently it became difficult to heat up the tyres and position the car into the corners.

Are you saying that damage of that sort went undetected between races? Sounds a bit hard to believe. Wouldn't the simplest of checks revealed that

the suspension geometry wasn't true

? No, not doubting, your veracity, just wondering about the source of this info. Seems to suggest a horrible sloppiness in RedBull race prep.