Turkish GP 2010 - Istanbul Park

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Richard
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Re: Turkish GP 2010 - Istanbul Park

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djos wrote:
Chaparral wrote:Whiteblue wrote
Marko has never been anything but useless.
he was a pretty handy sports car driver WB but now he really is a dick!
He has no F1 Points from 10 Gp's, a couple of fastest laps in sportscars and one LeMans 24hrs Win in a Porsche 917K and that's it really!
On that basis, there are some other chaps n F1 who don't know what they are talking about becaue they didn't have a succesful driving career - Ross Brawn, Ron Dennis, Martin Whitmarsh, Frank Williams, Flavoio Briatore, Stefano Domenico. What links them? Every WDC for the last couple of decades.

Meanwhile what F1 drivers have run F1 teams in recent times? Jackie Stewart, Niki Lauda, any others?

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WhiteBlue
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Re: Turkish GP 2010 - Istanbul Park

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richard_leeds wrote:
djos wrote:
Chaparral wrote:he was a pretty handy sports car driver WB but now he really is a dick!
He has no F1 Points from 10 Gp's, a couple of fastest laps in sportscars and one LeMans 24hrs Win in a Porsche 917K and that's it really!
On that basis, there are some other chaps n F1 who don't know what they are talking about becaue they didn't have a succesful driving career - Ross Brawn, Ron Dennis, Martin Whitmarsh, Frank Williams, Flavoio Briatore, Stefano Domenico. What links them? Every WDC for the last couple of decades.

Meanwhile what F1 drivers have run F1 teams in recent times? Jackie Stewart, Niki Lauda, any others?
Berger?
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

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djos
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Re: Turkish GP 2010 - Istanbul Park

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richard_leeds wrote: On that basis, there are some other chaps n F1 who don't know what they are talking about becaue they didn't have a succesful driving career - Ross Brawn, Ron Dennis, Martin Whitmarsh, Frank Williams, Flavoio Briatore, Stefano Domenico. What links them? Every WDC for the last couple of decades.

Meanwhile what F1 drivers have run F1 teams in recent times? Jackie Stewart, Niki Lauda, any others?
The difference is their CV's dont end with their Driving careers, his only notable achievements since is owning a couple of hotels and befriending DM! He doesn't run the team he has some meaningless title!
"In downforce we trust"

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strad
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Re: Turkish GP 2010 - Istanbul Park

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at .47 Marks heads bounces a little to the left, he does not LOOK left into his mirror.
To achieve anything, you must be prepared to dabble on the boundary of disaster.”
Sir Stirling Moss

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Chaparral
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Re: Turkish GP 2010 - Istanbul Park

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strad wrote:at .47 Marks heads bounces a little to the left, he does not LOOK left into his mirror.
Strad he was just protecting his line nothing more - it was up to Vettel to pass the guy cleanly as Webber was hardly going to hang a sign out saying pass me - Vettel didnt have a hope in hell of completing a pass and it wouldnt have mattered as he would have had to go into conserve mode a lap later anyway (btw you know your early prediction of a reliability run was correct as thats what appears to be happening with fuel consumption).
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Chaparral
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Re: Turkish GP 2010 - Istanbul Park

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djos wrote:
Chaparral wrote:Whiteblue wrote
Marko has never been anything but useless.
he was a pretty handy sports car driver WB but now he really is a dick!
He has no F1 Points from 10 Gp's, a couple of fastest laps in sportscars and one LeMans 24hrs Win in a Porsche 917K and that's it really!
Go dig some more djos - Le Mans is just one instance which is pretty substantial but his life in racing is quite interesting (forget wiki its crap and tells you nothing)
The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free and good men die like dogs - there's also the negative side' - Hunter S Thompson

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raymondu999
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Re: Turkish GP 2010 - Istanbul Park

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Remote_Access wrote:
99cent wrote:[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YiIc-A--iNU[/youtube]

Am I the only one seeing this?

At 0.47min does Webber look into in left mirror and slightly correct the car to the left?
He turns to the left but that puts him parallel to the white line, basically he stops yielding at that point. Seb then moves right.

Racing incident really. We're so caught up on the blame game but who cares - it happened and that's that.
hear hear =D>

What's done is done. Webber lovers, congrats. Webbo has 15 (points) over his teammate. Vettel lovers, (with myself also guilty as charged), we should see that what's done is done. The result has been decided, and the result is that Vettel drops back 15 on Mark.

Instead of squabbling over this blame game we should instead just be looking forward.

Webber-lovers should be looking forward and hoping Mark keeps the 15 points. Vettel-lovers should be thinking how he can regain those. :mrgreen:
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Richard
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Re: Turkish GP 2010 - Istanbul Park

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raymondu999 wrote:Webber-lovers should be looking forward and hoping Mark keeps the 15 points. Vettel-lovers should be thinking how he can regain those. :mrgreen:
Don't forget the macca lovers will be hoping their party pooping antics continue ;)

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raymondu999
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Re: Turkish GP 2010 - Istanbul Park

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I won't dignify the "party pooping antics" statement with a response as I'd just be baited. I'm talking of those who are blaming Webber/Vettel. But yes, macca lovers will be hoping that Macca maintains their top position.
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segedunum
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dannyteasdale wrote:Webber -

36 1:30.511
37 1:30.334
38 1:30.406
39 1:30.626
40 1:35.317

Vettel -

36 1:30.638
37 1:30.181
38 1:30.190

39 1:30.611
40 N/A as crashed this lap.

Hamilton -

36 1:30.524
37 1:30.425
38 1:30.357
39 1:30.522
40 1:30.865

Button (Just for good measure) -

36 1:30.831
37 1:30.382
38 1:30.251
39 1:30.369
40 1:31.467

I suggest you study the above before you start giving the lip on so called 'facts'.
Thanks for the lap times. I couldn't get to this info yesterday, but it's the same thing Ted Kravitz had on the BBC. I've highlighted the two laps of note but I notice you don't post anything before lap 37 to compare so I posted lap 36 for completeness in italics. :wink:
Its clear Webber had slowed down - or possibly turned the engine down, not so much of a stupid idea now eh? - and Vettel was lapping consistently in the 1.30's.
Webber didn't slow down. Take a look at Vettel's 1:30.1s. They were his fastest laps in the race. If you look at the preceding lap(s) he did you'll find they're around a half a second slower than those two he pulled out of the bag and on a par with Hamilton and Webber with the status quo being maintained. Webber's laps were all comparable so I don't know where you get this idea that he slowed down from. Ted Kravitz pointed out the very same thing on the BBC. Lap 39 was where Vettel had caught up to him and time was naturally lost. It wasn't Webber going slower it was the few tenths Vettel was pulling out relative to others and where he had been before.
As I said - I like stats, they make the facts.
Indeed.
Plus I'm now not going to say anymore on this as it should be in the Turkey GP discussion - not the Mclaren discussion.
Whilst an interesting detour it's interesting only insofar as people were trying to ascertain how close to the Red Bull McLaren really were in terms of maximum pace. The lap times establish that Vettel was able to speed up, not the reverse. I don't like to see people hide things behind figures though. :wink:
Last edited by segedunum on 01 Jun 2010, 15:28, edited 3 times in total.

RacingManiac
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Re: Turkish GP 2010 - Istanbul Park

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Chaparral wrote:
Go dig some more djos - Le Mans is just one instance which is pretty substantial but his life in racing is quite interesting (forget wiki its crap and tells you nothing)
Having his eye taken out by a rock at the Glen is pretty unfortunate I'd say....

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agungn51
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Re: Turkish GP 2010 - Istanbul Park

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DEJAVU....

Image
" Many inventors achieve great success, because they treat inventing like a serious busines - Inventing is often the easy part; the trick is to know what needs to be invented "

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Pandamasque
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Re: Turkish GP 2010 - Istanbul Park

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Chaparral wrote:Whiteblue wrote
Marko has never been anything but useless.
he was a pretty handy sports car driver WB but now he really is a dick!
Agreed. I'm amazed that Dieter has been allowing HM to sabotage his team(s) for so long.

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strad
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Re: Turkish GP 2010 - Istanbul Park

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Chap; at no point do I see where Webber squeezed Vettel and I don't think he saw him coming. I think we agree
To achieve anything, you must be prepared to dabble on the boundary of disaster.”
Sir Stirling Moss

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djos
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Re: Turkish GP 2010 - Istanbul Park

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A good article on Autosport:
Red Bull accepts Webber not to blame

By Jonathan Noble Tuesday, June 1st 2010, 14:34 GMT

Red Bull Racing has conceded that it was wrong to pin the blame on Mark Webber for the clash with team-mate Sebastian Vettel in Turkey last weekend - with the team now believing their coming-together was simply an 'unnecessary' racing accident.

In a press release Q & A issued by the team on Tuesday to try and defuse the controversy surrounding the team, team principal Christian Horner cast further light on the events building up to the incident.

Having had two days to analyse the crash and the circumstances surrounding it, Horner said that all factions of the team - including Red Bull's motorsport advisor Helmut Marko - now believed both drivers should share the blame for what happened.

This stance is in contrast to comments made by Marko immediately after the race, where he wholly blamed Webber. That statement prompted furore from fans and the media, especially because it was Vettel who had turned right into Webber's car as he tried to overtake him.

"Ultimately we win as a team and we lose as a team and on Sunday we lost as a team, as a result of our two drivers having an incident," said Horner. "Having looked at all the information it's clear that it was a racing accident that shouldn't have happened between two team mates.

"After looking at all the facts that weren't available immediately after the race, Dr. Marko also fully shares this view."

Horner revealed that two laps prior to the incident, Webber had turned his engine down to try and conserve fuel - which cost him 0.18 seconds per lap.

"On lap 38 and 39, Sebastian's pace picked up and he closed right up to the back of Mark while under considerable pressure from Hamilton behind," explained Horner. "After a very strong run through Turn 9, Sebastian got a run and strong tow and moved to the left to pass Mark.

"Mark held the inside line and adopted a defensive position, which he is entitled to do. When Sebastian was three quarters of the way past, he moved to the right.

"As Sebastian moved to the right, Mark held his position and the ensuing result was contact that resulted in Sebastian retiring, Mark damaging the front-end of his car and the team losing a one two finish. Ultimately both drivers should have given each other more room."

Horner said that talks planned with the drivers would clear up several issues relating to the race - including Vettel's actions when he got out of the car where his gestures indicated he thought Webber had been 'mad' for causing the crash.

"The adrenaline was flowing and obviously there's a great deal of frustration when you've just crashed out of a race," said Horner. "It will be discussed and I am certain that the air will be cleared before Canada."

He added: "We're a very strong team and we will sit down and discuss this openly with the drivers in order to learn from what has happened and avoid a situation like this arising again. One of the strengths of Red Bull Racing is the team spirit here, which has contributed to the performance that we have achieved so far this season. The drivers are both intelligent individuals and this issue will be resolved prior to the Canadian Grand Prix."

Although the fallout from Red Bull's handling of the events has heightened suspicions among fans that Vettel is the team's preferred driver, Horner remained adamant that both drivers would continue as equals.

"Both drivers, as has always been the case, will continue to be given equal treatment," he said. "The Turkish Grand Prix has been a costly lesson for both drivers and we are confident that this situation won't happen again."

When asked for Red Bull owner Dietrich Mateschitz's thoughts on the matter, he said: "Dietrich has spoken with both drivers following the incident. He has always supported both drivers equally and summed it up by saying, 'S*** happens...' we shouldn't talk about the past, but concentrate on the future. The fact is that we not only have the fastest car, but also two of the best and fastest drivers".

Such has been the level of criticism aimed at the team that Horner has also written an open letter to fans on Red Bull Racing's website forum explaining the outfit's situations.

"We now have to re-group," he said. "We are a strong team and we'll sit down and discuss what we can learn from this incident. We have immense team spirit here at Red Bull Racing, both Sebastian and Mark are intelligent individuals and we will have the situation resolved before we go to Montreal.

"And finally as I have always pledged, both drivers, will continue to be given equal treatment. The Turkish Grand Prix has been a costly lesson for both drivers and we are confident that this situation won't happen again.

"We still have a long way to go this year until Abu Dhabi and whichever Red Bull Racing driver you're behind in the fight for the world championship, I hope we - and they - can count on your support."
the only part I dont agree with (aside from not giving Vettel 100% blame) is this:
"Mark held the inside line and adopted a defensive position, which he is entitled to do. When Sebastian was three quarters of the way past, he moved to the right.
Seb Had his front wing and front wheels past when he turned right, that is not 3/4 of a car length!
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